NH: Gun toting Free Staters clear ice in "troubled" neighborhood

[The Dunedan]

Would you doubt it if it came out of Chuck Norris' mouth?

Reflexively. Besides being a mediocre, telegraphic, inflexible martial artist, Chuck Norris is a walking ego, a charlatan, an ass, and a has-been. If he told me the sky was blue I'd ask a friend and check for myself.

The main points are in most situations you wont get your gun, and if you actually manage to, there's a very good chance it will be taken off you,

Incorrect, wrong, baseless, nonsense, crap.
2,500,000 defensive gun uses per year in the US. If his points were accurate, this would not be the case. The majority of people who get their guns grabbed by criminals are, get this, COPS. Wanna guess why? Because cops have to be in close contact with desperate people and wear their guns in the open. Also because they frequently fuck the pooch and leave their guns lying around in cars. Non-LEOs very rarely have their weapon taken from them during an altercation.

A little more reading, and less reliance on stereotypes and Sensei Self-Esteem's Downtown Dojo would be a good place to start. Here you go:

Gun Facts - Your guide for debunking gun control myth
Sourced from the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the CDC, and numerous peer-reviewed studies. Enjoy.

[Aussie]

Quote by: The Dunedan Reflexively. Besides being a mediocre, telegraphic, inflexible martial artist, Chuck Norris is a walking ego, a charlatan, an ass, and a has-been. If he told me the sky was blue I'd ask a friend and check for myself. Incorrect, wrong, baseless, nonsense, crap. 2,500,000 defensive gun uses per year in the US. If his points were accurate, this would not be the case. The majority of people who get their guns grabbed by criminals are, get this, COPS. Wanna guess why? Because cops have to be in close contact with desperate people and wear their guns in the open. Also because they frequently fuck the pooch and leave their guns lying around in cars. Non-LEOs very rarely have their weapon taken from them during an altercation. A little more reading, and less reliance on stereotypes and Sensei Self-Esteem's Downtown Dojo would be a good place to start. Here you go: Gun Facts - Your guide for debunking gun control myth Sourced from the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the CDC, and numerous peer-reviewed studies. Enjoy.

Chucks achievements speak for themselves, and I'm not talking about his 'acting'.

Seriously though, if COPS cant even stop their guns being taken from them, what chance does average Joe have?

[The Dunedan]

Check out the trends, then. If it were really such an issue, it'd be easy to find incidents of people, armed for self-defense, being disarmed by their attackers. It'd have to be at least as easy as finding reports of people successfully defending themselves with firearms...c'mon, this I wanna see. How often does it happen? Where? When? Under what circumstances? Got any news-media reports? Maybe something from the FBI or FOP documenting this?

You're basing your entire argument on suppositions unsupported by documented fact.

[Derek Wolff]

And now I've checked the national crime rates and I am officially as mad as a wet hen because you lied to me. Where the heck did that that figure of a national crime decrease of only 0.4% come from? Between 1987 and 2005 murder dropped nationally by 32.5%.

Those statistics are from 87 to 05 not from 87 to 91. Pay attention next time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not just slinging mud at me. I'm not a Republican by the way. Thank you for assuming.

There's a bubble around you where martial arts are just inherently better than a gun. The motions to disarm a person holding a knife or a pistol are fast and simple. I've practiced with BB guns and magic marker; I have about an 80% survival rate on an opponent who is already holding and pointing their weapon, and I know a lot of people who are better at it than I am. I'm probably not going to believed but its the truth; I hardly ever fail this drill. Got my brother to use the BB gun once and he got mad when he was unable to pull the trigger faster than I could redirect the weapon at him. You can achieve similar results by owning a gun...if you're Billy the Kid.

How far was your buddy? 10 inches? Are you faster than a speeding bullet?
To this argument :

Traditionally you mug people in one of two ways. You get them to put their hands in the air and remove their wallet yourself. Alternatively, you stab them in the back and loot their corpse. This is done because there is always the possibility of a concealed weapon and the criminal does not want to give the victim the chance you are describing. Crime still happens.

Do you think his training and comments are wrong? Would you doubt it if it came out of Chuck Norris' mouth? The main points are in most situations you wont get your gun, and if you actually manage to, there's a very good chance it will be taken off you, and where will that leave you? Dead. All over a wallet (for example)?

No I would certainly not believe Chuck Norris. Personally I would rather hand over my wallet.

Of course they're trying to sell classes! But I'd hardly call thousands of years of martial art principles slanted, they've been around a whoooooole lot longer than guns have.

Its slanted especially in America where there has been a tradition of over glorifying Oriental Martial Arts for the past 30-40 years.

Aussie and his Jujitsu school do not lie. I have not practiced Jujitsu but I hear it is similar to taekwondo, which I can speak about.

Jujitsu is a martial arts based on holds and throws, taekwondo is closer to Karate. In fact the Japanese based Karate on Taekwondo from Korea.

Also, come to think of it Florida is a bad example. The retired population is skyrocketing, and the elderly do not commit very many crimes. The number of criminals has stayed about the same, but per 100,000 it is in deed dropping.

I think the elderly would also make a very good target for violent crime.

You're basing your entire argument on suppositions unsupported by documented fact.

I seem to be the only here that is using some facts.

Seriously though, if COPS cant even stop their guns being taken from them, what chance does average Joe have?

You miss the point that its because cops have close contact with the assaliant, which is why they lose their weapon. If your a citizen and all you have to do is point and shoot, not a lot to worry about. At least the weapon can be tracked if its stolen, can't do that with an illegal sold weapon, which is surprisingly easy to get ahold of.

Suddenly awakened by the sound of someone rapping on a window, Matthew Kovschak called 9-1-1 and grabbed his .357 caliber handgun. According to police, Kovschak warned the prowler that he had a gun and police were on the way. The noise stopped, but only momentarily. Kovschak heard a commotion and then he saw a hand reaching through a broken window pane trying to unlock the back door. After one more warning, Kovschak fired four shots, twice striking the female intruder. Police believe a second suspect fled the scene. (The Ledger, Lakeland, FL, 01/22/08)

Armed Citizen

There you go. A ton of news articles about armed citizens warding off crimnals.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Derek Wolff Those statistics are from 87 to 05 not from 87 to 91. Pay attention next time, I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you were not just slinging mud at me. I'm not a Republican by the way. Thank you for assuming. How far was your buddy? 10 inches? Are you faster than a speeding bullet? To this argument : No I would certainly not believe Chuck Norris. Personally I would rather hand over my wallet. Its slanted especially in America where there has been a tradition of over glorifying Oriental Martial Arts for the past 30-40 years. Jujitsu is a martial arts based on holds and throws, taekwondo is closer to Karate. In fact the Japanese based Karate on Taekwondo from Korea. I think the elderly would also make a very good target for violent crime. I seem to be the only here that is using some facts. You miss the point that its because cops have close contact with the assaliant, which is why they lose their weapon. If your a citizen and all you have to do is point and shoot, not a lot to worry about. At least the weapon can be tracked if its stolen, can't do that with an illegal sold weapon, which is surprisingly easy to get ahold of. Armed Citizen There you go. A ton of news articles about armed citizens warding off crimnals.

The bubble works out to about four feet.

To mug a person who knows martial arts you need two people. One points the gun from a safe distance or inside a car and the other clears the wallet. I've had cause to read a lot of police reports.

Oh, and I recalculate based upon just 1987 to 1991, and it still does not work out to the figures you quoted. I apologize for my error, but regardless by accident I analyzed a larger and more meaningful period of time anyway so my effort was not wasted.

You have a point about the elderly. You would also have a point about drunk college students, who featured prominently in the police reports I wound up reading. As I said in my previous post, pass out free tasers.

And when I said Jujitsu and taekwondo were similar, I was referring to how they clear weapons. Jujitsu is more about wrestling and some of it I have not seen before, but other things I am familiar with.

YouTube - Freedman's Method Ketsugo Jujutsu- Gun Defense

YouTube - Ju jitsu knife defense 1990 Northern soul Condition Red

[Derek Wolff]

In those vids the assailant has the muzzle of the weapon against the victim. Yes that would be easy to counter, but I don't believe you have a four foot reach before some one shoots you. I'll need proof of that.

Oh, and I recalculate based upon just 1987 to 1991, and it still does not work out to the figures you quoted. I apologize for my error, but regardless by accident I analyzed a larger and more meaningful period of time anyway so my effort was not wasted.

I did not lie, it was my source that was faulty. Is the state calculation incorrect? I would assume that would be the more meaningful statistic.

To mug a person who knows martial arts you need two people. One points the gun from a safe distance or inside a car and the other clears the wallet. I've had cause to read a lot of police reports.

Please cite them, otherwise that is complete bolognia powered by TV that always stereo-types Oriental martial arts that it makes people super-human.

And when I said Jujitsu and taekwondo were similar, I was referring to how they clear weapons. Jujitsu is more about wrestling and some of it I have not seen before, but other things I am familiar with.

They taught it when I took Karate for five years. After that I taught myself Kendo so don't talk down to me like I know nothing of martial arts. When I first began martial arts I thought the same way, with experience I find martial arts has been incredibly dramatized by pop culture.

Earlier during the argument of crimnals having illegal weapons I could easily have given you a personal experience on purchasing illegal weapons. I did not, please refrain from using unproven personal experiences in a debate.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Derek Wolff In those vids the assailant has the muzzle of the weapon against the victim. Yes that would be easy to counter, but I don't believe you have a four foot reach before some one shoots you. I'll need proof of that. I did not lie, it was my source that was faulty. Is the state calculation incorrect? I would assume that would be the more meaningful statistic. Please cite them, otherwise that is complete bolognia powered by TV that always stereo-types Oriental martial arts that it makes people super-human. They taught it when I took Karate for five years. After that I taught myself Kendo so don't talk down to me like I know nothing of martial arts. When I first began martial arts I thought the same way, with experience I find martial arts has been incredibly dramatized by pop culture. Earlier during the argument of crimnals having illegal weapons I could easily have given you a personal experience on purchasing illegal weapons. I did not, please refrain from using unproven personal experiences in a debate.

The four footer is a skipping crescent kick that combines a dodge and hooking the gun with your foot, aided by the fact that I have long legs. It is not a perfect technique because you are pulling the gun towards you and it may go off, so your foot has to be positioned right so the gun spins away from your body. The idea is that if they try to follow the dodge then your foot is in the path the gun needs to follow to reacquire you as a target, and a tenth of a second later they no longer have a gun. There's a science to looking superhuman.

You also practice distraction. Shifting focus takes about the same amount of time as throwing the kick, so if you wait until their focus drifts slightly you win. Just talk to them about politics or the weather, it doesn't really matter what you say as long as you kick them in mid sentence.

Sadly, "gun" is part of the name of a Korean hero with a taekwondo form named after him that is unconnected with guns, and searching for gun plus kick on Youtube gives me pages of assclowns trying to use high recoil weapons. I cannot find you what I'm looking for. Go to a dojang and ask to see greenbelt gun technique number 1.

The police reports would be for the Tulane University area of New Orleans in 2006 and 2007. It was just how muggers operated; find one or two drunk college students, pull over in a car and one bad guy gets out while the other keeps his foot on the gas and holds a gun. Post Katrina we had really professional muggers who did not like leaving things to chance.

Sadly I do not know where to go for an official online copy of those records. My google-fu is not strong this day.

Have we talked enough about martial arts?

[Derek Wolff]

I am not going to argue further with you, this discussion on martial arts is not only a red hearing but childish. If you wish to believe you are going to kick a gun out of mans hands its your death wish, but keep it to yourself eh? If you have substantial evidence of the right to carry harming society overall please come forward.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Derek Wolff I am not going to argue further with you, this discussion on martial arts is not only a red hearing but childish. If you wish to believe you are going to kick a gun out of mans hands its your death wish, but keep it to yourself eh? If you have substantial evidence of the right to carry harming society overall please come forward.

And I'm telling you I've done this with a BB gun. Its not a death wish because it works.

But anyways, gun crimes (and murder rates in general) are much lower in the UK. Look this up.

[Halofan48]

Quote by: The Dunedan Reflexively. Besides being a mediocre, telegraphic, inflexible martial artist, Chuck Norris is a walking ego, a charlatan, an ass, and a has-been. If he told me the sky was blue I'd ask a friend and check for myself. Incorrect, wrong, baseless, nonsense, crap. 2,500,000 defensive gun uses per year in the US. If his points were accurate, this would not be the case. The majority of people who get their guns grabbed by criminals are, get this, COPS. Wanna guess why? Because cops have to be in close contact with desperate people and wear their guns in the open. Also because they frequently fuck the pooch and leave their guns lying around in cars. Non-LEOs very rarely have their weapon taken from them during an altercation. A little more reading, and less reliance on stereotypes and Sensei Self-Esteem's Downtown Dojo would be a good place to start. Here you go: Gun Facts - Your guide for debunking gun control myth Sourced from the FBI Uniform Crime Report, the CDC, and numerous peer-reviewed studies. Enjoy.

I just noticed this. Your number is 2,500,000 incidents per year where a gun was used in self defense. Tell me, how many of these actually ended in the death or injury of the perpetrator? Just give me a rough percentage.

Also, give me a percentage of that of incidents resulting in deaths.

[Derek Wolff]

Would you really care if there was one less criminal in the world?

[Halofan48]

still waiting for percentage...