NH: Gun toting Free Staters clear ice in "troubled" neighborhood

[Tycoon]

What you are saying is nonsense. There is a concept in the law that there's no way to write a contract to prevent a dishonest man from screwing you, because a dishonest man won't honor the contract no matter what it says. If "everyone" can carry guns the "only" thing stopping someone from shooting you will be the exact same things that stop people from shooting you now - laws against shooting someone, the social contract, civilization, etc. Here's your logic: Right now, the only thing stopping someone from running you down with their car is that you're in a car, too. Therefore, as long as there are pedestrians anywhere, cars should be outlawed.

If this is the case then what is the need to carry a gun? According to you you won't be shot because it's against the law. You pretty much just invalidated your only reason for carrying a gun in public.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Tycoon If this is the case then what is the need to carry a gun? According to you you won't be shot because it's against the law. You pretty much just invalidated your only reason for carrying a gun in public.

No, you're not getting it, like most anti-gun people.

Your argument, plainly ridiculous, is that mere possession of a gun or dispossession of a gun is the sole factor that makes someone commit gun crimes.

What I am saying is that gun possession has nothing to do with someone's propensity to commit crime. If everyone carried a gun, criminals would still be criminals and law-abiding citizens would still be such. The only thing that would change is that law-abiding citizens would now have the means to protect themselves from the criminals.

What we have now is a situation where in many places, carrying a gun is illegal. Criminals do not care that it is illegal and carry one anyway. Law-abiding citizens follow the law and do not carry one in those places. So, criminals are the only ones armed.

Legal possession and display of a firearm does not make someone any more likely to submit to criminal propensities than legal ownership of a car makes you a drunk driver. Get it?

[Tycoon]

Your argument, plainly ridiculous, is that mere possession of a gun or dispossession of a gun is the sole factor that makes someone commit gun crimes. What I am saying is that gun possession has nothing to do with someone's propensity to commit crime. If everyone carried a gun, criminals would still be criminals and law-abiding citizens would still be such. The only thing that would change is that law-abiding citizens would now have the means to protect themselves from the criminals. What we have now is a situation where in many places, carrying a gun is illegal. Criminals do not care that it is illegal and carry one anyway. Law-abiding citizens follow the law and do not carry one in those places. So, criminals are the only ones armed.

I'm sorry, but I thought it didn't matter. There are laws protecting you, right? That's what you said.

Also, like you said above, the criminals don't care if it's illegal. They could shoot me just the same. So pretty much... everybody will have to carry a gun. You are forcing that on us.

[Kite]

Oh come on, give it up. Now you are intentionally trying not to see the point.

The laws are followed by normal people, however the criminals, who disregard the law, may I remind you, if you have forgotten what a criminal is, don't give a damn whether something is illegal or not. The law can only protect if the person follows it. If someone decides he doesn't give a shit, then its down to you, him, God, and whatever weapons you might have.

And no one is forcing you to carry a gun. Also, even if you were, how would that be a bad thing? Its not like anyone can make you use it, YOU are the only one that can pull the trigger.

[DadaOrwell2]

The other reason for us being armed was to send a message around the neighborhood that there are a bunch of armed people who live there. That deters break-ins.

[Halofan48]

remember those little kids? What do you think will happen if they ever get access to those weapons? Hm?

[another day]

Quote by: Halofan48 remember those little kids? What do you think will happen if they ever get access to those weapons? Hm?

This comes back once again to the onus of personal responsibility. It's your responsibility as a gun owner to lock up your guns so that your children can not possibly get a hold of them, rather than having the state ban guns so that your children can't get a hold of them.

[Anmon]

Cleaning up the neighborhood in more ways than one, this can only be a win win situation for society.

[Anmon]

Had to happen sooner or later, criminals and gangs have no fear of the police or breaking the law now, so people have to protect their family's.
If protecting your family means breaking a law that doesn't give you adequate enough protection in the first place, then so be it.
Your family's safety comes first and foremost, and if that means shooting some guy high on something thats threatening them in any way, then so be it, anyone that disagrees can just harden up a little.

[Derek Wolff]

GunCite-Gun Control-International Homicide Comparisons

Guns are not the source of violence, as said they are a tool. By themselves they commit no act, the act is by the weilder not the weapon. Without a gun they will commit the act with another weapon, although more difficult it will have the same end value. I could jam a pencil in your neck or hit you over the head with a frickin' chair. Will that make you any less dead? Will you ban pencils and chairs?


Gun crime increases in countries that have strict gunlaws because it disarms the citizens while crimnals continue arming themselves. What we need is stricter background checks, and make it federal law enforcing background checks, some states still have VERY loose gun laws.

[Halofan48]

Derek, Let me ask you something. Some one is ten meters away from you. Now, if they have a gun, your screwed. You make 1or 2 steps and you get shot. Now lets replace gun with a knife. Now, it has become a situation where you can effectively fight back and make it harder for the criminal to kill you.

Now for the defense argument. The pro-gun people often say that most criminals will go to the black market. This is unlikely. If it were true, you'd see some very bad crimes a lot more often. You say, "i need a gun to defend myself" What about Non-Lethal Weapons? Your argument with this is range. Let me tell you something, if a guy is 100 meters away from you and wants to kill you and has a gun that can hit you easily from that range, your screwed gun or no. most crimes like mugging and break ins where you see the person is in pretty close places. Besides, if we spent the money we do know on gun research and production, we could likely improve non-lethal weaponry to give better range, accuracy, and multiple shots.

Also, provide your statistics supporting your claim of higher gun crime rates please.

[Derek Wolff]

Derek, Let me ask you something. Some one is ten meters away from you. Now, if they have a gun, your screwed. You make 1or 2 steps and you get shot. Now lets replace gun with a knife. Now, it has become a situation where you can effectively fight back and make it harder for the criminal to kill you.

Durrr... Thats the whole point to open carrying. If they have a gun, you have a gun. If they have a knife and you have a gun your chances of survival are much higher I'd say.

100 meters away from you and wants to kill you and has a gun that can hit you easily from that range, your screwed gun or no.

How likely is that? Its hard to tote high-powered rifle in a city. I believe pistols are the only weapons that are licensed for carrying.

most crimes like mugging and break ins where you see the person is in pretty close places. Besides, if we spent the money we do know on gun research and production, we could likely improve non-lethal weaponry to give better range, accuracy, and multiple shots.

Such break-in's are perfect situations for a pistol, which is taking the most hits by anti-gun activists as of late. I have no problem with creating non-lethal weapons but it should remain a matter of choice as to which you use.

* In 1982, a survey of imprisoned criminals found that 34% of them had been "scared off, shot at, wounded or captured by an armed victim." (16c)

* Washington D.C. enacted a virtual ban on handguns in 1976. Between 1976 and 1991, Washington D.C.'s homicide rate rose 200%, while the U.S. rate rose 12%. (1)

* Florida adopted a right-to-carry law in 1987. Between 1987 and 1996, these changes occurred: Florida United States homicide rate STATE : -36% US : -0.4% firearm homicide rate STATE : -37% US : +15% handgun homicide rate STATE : -41% US : +24%

I found the most non-bias statistic and report I could. Most the others were tied in with political idealogies be it conservatism or liberal.

Just Facts.com --> Gun Control

[Aussie]

Amazing how the romance of the ol West is still alive and well in the US. The rest of the world has moved on from the 1700s. You guys talk as if you're in a war zone??

please take advice from sensei here: (martial arts have been using weapons wwaaaaaaaaaaaaaay longer than guns have been around).
Self-Defense Weapons - What is the Best Weapon for Self-defense?

If you are thinking of purchasing a gun, or other "self-protection" weapons, then you know it is Essential to learn how to defense yourself, now more than ever!

Many people will tell you not to buy weapons, but for all the wrong reasons. I am not going to tell you not to buy a weapon. But, before you purchase a gun, or any other "self-protection" device, I urge you to read this first! You need to be able to make an intelligent and informed choice when purchasing something as potentially dangerous as a gun, stun-gun, or spray.

Weapons and "Self-Protection" Devices Prove Ineffective Against Crime!
You probably already know that the statistics on crime are not in your favor. Crime statistics show everyone will experience a violent crime at one time or another. Everyone knows someone who has been a victim of a violent crime. You are probably thinking that it's just a matter of time until it is your turn!

Today, not only do you have to worry about criminals, but now terrorists as well! What is this world coming to? Would you know what to do?

You may be thinking, "Well, I'll just get a gun!" Unfortunately, real-world tests have shown that overall, weapons (or other "self-defense" products) are actually ineffective when it comes to self-defense. Why?

There are many factors that contribute, but the main reason weapons are ineffective is, if the weapon is not in your hand at the moment of attack, you will never get the chance to use it! Even if you have a stun gun or pepper spray in your purse or pocket, if caught by surprise, you won't have a chance to get it out before you get decked! Mace does you no good if it is still in the purse that just got snatched out of your hand! Tests prove that 90% of the time, you will never get the chance to reach for your weapon before you are hurt too severely to use it.

Criminals may be dumb, but they’re not stupid.
Criminals are well aware of the Second Amendment and know that any victim they chose may potentially have a weapon. That means they are already one step ahead of you. They already know what to do if you pull out (or even reach for) a weapon, and running away is not part of their plan.

FBI statistics and Police reports from all over the country show that in more than half of all instances where the victim was able to get to a "weapon" (usually sprays are mentioned), the attacker knocked it out of their hand before they could use it. Police files are filled with tens of thousands of incidents of weapons taken away from the victim and used against them! It is estimated that almost one third of all gunshot victims are shot with their own gun! The figures are even higher when it comes to stun-guns and sprays.

This doesn't even include all of the incidences where the victims shoot themselves!

You may be your own worst enemy
Accidental discharge is the leading cause of gunshot wounds in both crime and non-crime reports. You may think that wouldn't happen to you, but the reports prove that it happens to even experienced gun owners.

I know of a Police officer, even after extensive training, the first time he tried to use mace against an unruly suspect, ended up spraying himself.

Unfortunately, most people have little or no training as to the safe and proper use of the weapons in their possession. What do you think will happen when they attempt to use that weapon under the stress of a real attack? Inadequate, or even improper training is the leading cause of accidental discharge involving guns, stun-guns and sprays.

There are literally millions of incidents reported where the victim couldn't get the weapon to work at all, mainly because of inadequate training! Even the most basic principles of weapon usage are often overlooked by owners. The figures are stunning (I couldn't resist the pun) of the number of incidents of stun guns that didn't work when needed because of dead batteries!

There are thousands upon thousands of reports of guns that wouldn't fire because the "safety" was on, and the user didn't know, forgot, or was too panicked to figure it out in time. In at least one incident I am aware of, the victim couldn't get his weapon to fire before the criminal took it away from him. Lucky for him, the criminal couldn't figure it out either.

If you are serious about Self-Protection…
Your best self defense weapon is your mind. If you think about what has just been discussed, you will realize that 'weapons' will only help you in ideal situations.

Crime doesn't happen in ideal situations!

Being able to think clearly, and knowing what to do, is your best weapon when it comes to self-defense. Second best is being able to use your feet. Now, that doesn't mean to start kicking! It means that knowing when to shut up and walk away (or run) is always a much better self-defense tactic than getting into a fight.

However, if you can't get away, your hands and feet are your next best set of weapons! It is essential that you know how to defend yourself without weapons, as well as with weapons.

Knowing how to handle yourself when confronted with violence is your only insurance against becoming a victim, or just another statistic in a police report. You have car insurance, home-owner's insurance, life insurance, health insurance…

What insurance do you have against being the victim of a violent crime? A long-term self-defense program offers the most comprehensive training, and therefore, the best opportunity to learn to handle almost any situation that may occur. However, if you don't have the time to commit to a long-term program, at least some form of weaponless self-defense training is better than none.

[Derek Wolff]

A. This information is coming from a Jujtsu school, its information is slanted because they are attempting to sell classes.

B. Some of it makes sense, go for it if you want to. It would be good to have.

C. A weapon would still be a good thing to have.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Tycoon Protect themselves from what? Nobody tried to mug them while they were shoveling ice. And no, cookies are one of the girl scout's largest fundraisers and so are completely relevant.

I live in New Hampshire. The suburbs of Manchester in daylight, on a scale of 1 to 10 with 10 being San Jose's red light district at midnight and 1 as a lady's sewing club, ranks as a 2. There are parts of Boston where you might hit 7 or 8, but Manchester just isn't that scary a place.

And if a mugger has a gun or a taser and the element of surprise it does not matter if you have a gun. I challenge anybody to turn, draw and fire before someone else who is already drawn and aimed pulls the trigger.

Its a deterrent as long as there are still victims who do not carry guns, but if everybody does or if muggers start to figure out the rules of the game then its back to square one.

You would also see an increase in spur of the moment murders.

[Derek Wolff]

You would also see an increase in spur of the moment murders.

You seem to completely disregard facts and statistics. No, it won't.

And if a mugger has a gun or a taser and the element of surprise it does not matter if you have a gun. I challenge anybody to turn, draw and fire before someone else who is already drawn and aimed pulls the trigger.

How likely is it the mugger will expect him to pull a gun instead of his wallet? Aside from that, I think its more important in home invasion rather than muggings. If the mugger merely has a knife and not a gun it won't matter as well. If the muggers catch on every one has guns I think they would be more intimidated and afraid more than any thing.

[Matt W]

Aussie, in future, please do not cut & paste entire articles.

Quote by: Rules Provide the source of quoted material and do not copy entire articles

DO NOT RESPOND IN THIS THREAD TO THE PRECEDING MESSAGE. Please contact a member of the staff privately if you have any questions.

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Derek Wolff You seem to completely disregard facts and statistics. No, it won't. How likely is it the mugger will expect him to pull a gun instead of his wallet? Aside from that, I think its more important in home invasion rather than muggings. If the mugger merely has a knife and not a gun it won't matter as well. If the muggers catch on every one has guns I think they would be more intimidated and afraid more than any thing.

I crosschecked your Florida statistics. That's true apparently and I stand corrected regarding homicide.

Traditionally you mug people in one of two ways. You get them to put their hands in the air and remove their wallet yourself. Alternatively, you stab them in the back and loot their corpse. This is done because there is always the possibility of a concealed weapon and the criminal does not want to give the victim the chance you are describing. Crime still happens.

Also, come to think of it Florida is a bad example. The retired population is skyrocketing, and the elderly do not commit very many crimes. The number of criminals has stayed about the same, but per 100,000 it is in deed dropping.

Total Crime Rate 1960 - 2006

And now I've checked the national crime rates and I am officially as mad as a wet hen because you lied to me. Where the heck did that that figure of a national crime decrease of only 0.4% come from? Between 1987 and 2005 murder dropped nationally by 32.5%.

Bureau of Justice Statistics Homicide Trends in the United States:

I find it hard not to despise Republicans. Have you no shame?

[Aussie]

Quote by: Derek Wolff A. This information is coming from a Jujtsu school, its information is slanted because they are attempting to sell classes. B. Some of it makes sense, go for it if you want to. It would be good to have. C. A weapon would still be a good thing to have.

Of course they're trying to sell classes! But I'd hardly call thousands of years of martial art principles slanted, they've been around a whoooooole lot longer than guns have.

Do you think his training and comments are wrong? Would you doubt it if it came out of Chuck Norris' mouth? The main points are in most situations you wont get your gun, and if you actually manage to, there's a very good chance it will be taken off you, and where will that leave you? Dead. All over a wallet (for example)?

[Thanatos]

Quote by: Aussie Of course they're trying to sell classes! But I'd hardly call thousands of years of martial art principles slanted, they've been around a whoooooole lot longer than guns have. Do you think his training and comments are wrong? Would you doubt it if it came out of Chuck Norris' mouth? The main points are in most situations you wont get your gun, and if you actually manage to, there's a very good chance it will be taken off you, and where will that leave you? Dead. All over a wallet (for example)?

Aussie and his Jujitsu school do not lie. I have not practiced Jujitsu but I hear it is similar to taekwondo, which I can speak about.

There's a bubble around you where martial arts are just inherently better than a gun. The motions to disarm a person holding a knife or a pistol are fast and simple. I've practiced with BB guns and magic marker; I have about an 80% survival rate on an opponent who is already holding and pointing their weapon, and I know a lot of people who are better at it than I am. I'm probably not going to believed but its the truth; I hardly ever fail this drill. Got my brother to use the BB gun once and he got mad when he was unable to pull the trigger faster than I could redirect the weapon at him. You can achieve similar results by owning a gun...if you're Billy the Kid.

Teach everybody taekwondo or jujitsu in school. Pass out free tasers if you insist on something with a trigger. If you believe this silly armament causes peace idea that'll work great.