Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

Paavo · Jul 13, 2004, 10:27 am

I was reading through this thread at another forum and it really made me think - mostly because we Finns are a fairly patriotic bunch. But why do we feel pride of our country? It's not like we have done anything to be born there. And how come there are patriots in every country in the world?
For me, it follows the same ill logic as religion. How can it possible be that people are so convinced they're right - because that's what they're told from day one. It's like a virus that just leaps from generation to generation and won't go away - because it's script has a never ending loop in it.
I usually laugh and feel disgust at the incredible amount of cheese in American TV shows and the patriotism in them - and people on this board too. But never had I really thought of my own patriotism critically in the same way. Okay, our patriotistic propaganda isn't as cheesy and blatant in the same way American tends to be, but our culture isn't anything like the American overall anyway. How can one sit down, really think about it, and still justify the thoughts of your own country being so much better than the next one?

m5lange1 · Jul 13, 2004, 11:27 am

Patriotism is acting on/supporting whatever you think is good for your country. As long as you are truly interested in what is good for your country.

Example 1.Supporting your country at war is patriotic. To do otherwise is treasonous.

Example 2. To activly resist your country going into a war you believe to be unjust is patriotc. To do otherwise is treasonous.

If either is a consistant belief that is patriotism. If these beliefs switch according to who is in charge, that is stupidity.

( yea the first thing that comes to mind for me IS that bunch that screamed "wag the dog" when Clinton went to war and called those posing alterior motives for Bush's war treasonous..... but the door DOES swing both ways)

M5

Paavo · Jul 13, 2004, 11:30 am

Yeah - I'm not talking about the word "patriotism", more trying to understand why people are patriotic. I'm looking for the reasons, the logic, the underlying factors and who benefits from patriotism. And I'm not talking about American patriotism only, I'm talking about the whole concept.

Sodfather · Jul 13, 2004, 03:22 pm

Paavo, have you ever heard the Greek word "storge?" It is one of the four degrees of love about which ancient Greeks such as Aristotle philosophized, and describes a love that is instinctive and familial.

I believe storge is an excellent explanation as to why citizens love their nations instinctively--just as a child loves his mother, father, and siblings. Children do not conscientiously choose to love family members, but rather it naturally occurs. In this manner citizens instinctively love the nation in which they are born.

To compare these two occurences of storge furthermore, each love can also be severed as the indvidual develops his or her own conscience. A cruel dictator may come to power, and the individual ceases to love his country not just with a storge love, but any type of love. So is the case in the family system. The father may become abusive, and the child's love can cease to exist.

G. Adams · Jul 13, 2004, 08:10 pm

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel"

We are all raised to love our country, so we do. It's not instinctive. It cannot be. England has been England, not in name but as a geographical country, yet there have been numerous wars between different areas continued almost constantly until Henry Tudor won the War of the Roses. Did everyone have an instinctive love for England, even if they were tearing it apart? No, they had been raised in an environment to love a particular community and lord. Only from the time of Disraeli did nationalism become prevelant, and this was due to the external threat of French invasion. This feeling of national identity was fostered through massive propaganda. It wouldn't matter to the people at the bottom of the country who ran it, whether they were British (because they wern't, they were German afterall) or French. But did it matter to the aristocracy and the burgeoning middle classes? Of course, they didn't want someone else taking their land. But how can they protect it? By fostering the false belief that we're all British, we're all in this together, and we won't be beaten by those baby eating Frenchies! So everyone helped, and the rich were saved. But were the poor saved from their enemies? Starvation, filthy water, poor housing, no education, no votes? Nope, of course they wern't, nothing changed. During World War I the working class of GB were told if we win this war, those who return will come back to a land fit for heroes? What happened? They pinned a bit of metal, and sent them back to the slums they came from with whatever wounds or disabilities they accrued fighting for what amounts to nothing but British pride. Only after World War II did anything change here, and that was because a social democratic government was elected, Labour, who at least made the first steps to a better Britain.

Patriotism has been seperated more recently from Nationalism only because some people who cling to the belief that loving your country is a good and real thing while other nationalists commit things they disagree with. Nothing more. It would have been better for Britain to be invaded by France and gotten rid of our monarchy. It would have been better for GB to enter into negotiations with Germany straight away rather than beginning a stupid war that only happened because of nationalistic fervour, nothing more. That would have averted World War II. But none of these things could have been said at the time because they are all unpatriotic, hell most would tell me they are unpatriotic now.

Johnny Rebel · Jul 15, 2004, 11:33 pm

Let's look at it like this, lets just hyopethically say that there are only two nations in the world. The Soviet Union and the United States. Now lets say we got just average run of the mill middle class joe. Now he looks at his nation (the United States) and says, 'we got it alot better over here then those reds do, I mean, the people over here get more for what they work for, we can say what we want without worrying about getting shipped off to God's freezer, and dammit, I can take a piss without having a camera watching me. Now over there, those people are a bunch of disgruntled, poor, vodka drunk hopeless saps.' So then he gets to thinking, he sees how his country treats it's people better (IE doesn't keep them behind a wall with machine guns), ya know, just little stuff like no deny people of their humanity....that kind of thing. So he says, I'm a hard working fellow, and I contribute to this country, and we're doing better then Premier Boris and the Blungering Bolsheviks, so takes his pride in his nation because it's actions pleases and are comparitavely better then other nations, and as someone who contributes to it's well being, he gets a natural sense of pride and Patriotism for his country.

Now maybe it's just my ignorant American Cowboyism speaking, but I would consider a country that commits mass genocide (throw a dart at the continent of Africa), worse then one that doesn't. But I guess that's just that typical dumb American spewing his overrated common sense.

Well that's the Cowboy's take on American Patriotism at least. But I doubt there were too many patriots in Rhowanda (that weren't carrying weapons of course).

castille · Jul 15, 2004, 11:56 pm

Patriotism is the strongest force in the world.

Even ideology can't beat it. In 1941 when the Soviet Union was attacked, Communism failed to unite the soldiers. Stalin's portrait failed. It wasn't until he declared it was a war for Russia that the Russians finally began to fight.

katar · Jul 16, 2004, 03:36 am

Because as humans we decided to draw lines on maps and divide and subdivide land. Then each space on the map developed separate food, music, flag, culture, language, etc...

So there are bonds of commonality among one's countrymen. Humans like to identify with larger groups, and one's country is a convenient large group with well-defined common traits.

bugsbunny04 · Jul 16, 2004, 08:19 pm

Loyaltiy to your country. Patriotism is the idea that you would defend the ideals.

G. Adams · Jul 17, 2004, 04:36 pm

Patriotism is not loyalty to ideals. Patriotism is loyalty to your country. What you interpret beyond that is up to you. Otherwise, how could any British person be patriotic? We don't have ideals. Our country was established on power and warfare, not ideals. Only the most Nietzchian of people could be loyal to such a founding.

Johnny Rebel - The person in the US thinks "my country is better because I am free to go about my business without interference, the right to say what I like, and I'm free to become rich if I work hard enough (poor ignorant fool)"

The Soviet thinks "my country is better because everyone has a job, everyone has enough food and provision to live, everyone has free healthcare, everyone can go to university". Poor ignorant fool.

Don't fool yourself, your country and every otherone revolves around power, whether it's obvious as in a dictatorship or more subtley in "democracies".

castille · Jul 19, 2004, 11:28 pm

Well yeah....countries revolve around power. It's happened from the beginning of time, when Oga's tribe beat up Oonga's tribe for domination of the Great Cave.

Hell, people revolve around power. Why do you think the same leaders of idealistic revolutions end up becoming dictators ("The people love me, elections are for dirty capitalist pig-dogs!")?

Humans seek power. The elite want to keep their power, the underdogs want to become the elite (under the guide of idealism), and everyone in between wants a bigger piece of the pie.

The only ideal that have ever lasted throughout history is power.

Samildanach · Jul 21, 2004, 08:14 am

Patriotism is basically a glorified form of nationalism in which more or less serves ones country to some degree. Nationalism/patriotism are more or less what is stopping us from unifying as a global culture. They are particularly bad traits to be encouraging IMHO. If you want to be proud of something try being patriotic about the planet.

Nono · Jul 23, 2004, 05:12 pm

Holy jeez, I actually read all the way through Paavo's post without getting vertigo from this ceasely nodding cranium on the left. Not bad, eh?

It asks some excellent questions. How is it that Finns or Americans or Fijians JUST HAPPEN to have concluded, after judicious and sober consideration of the pertinent facts, that -- by a wild chance -- they live in God's Country? What a coincidence, eh?

The Finns' patriotism is intensified by feelings of uniqueness -- the only non-Germanic country in Scandanavia, that unassuming little nation that gave Stalin a bloody nose, etc. -- but any country, or smaller entity, can crank up a good dose of chauvinism if it puts its mind to it. And that's human nature because, I think, we evolved in small clutches of people who relied on internal solidarity for group survival.

Sodfather: "Citizens instinctively love the nation in which they are born."

Right, otherwise known as tribalism: my tribe, dammit, and love it or leave it.

G. Adams: "... external threat ... "

This always helps forge the feeling of tribe.

Nono · Jul 23, 2004, 05:17 pm

G. Adams: "Only after World War II ..."

I think that's true, and not only in Britain. The guys who came back from WWII were in no mood to return to the bottom of the heap.

"It would have been better for GB to enter into negotiations with Germany straight away rather than beginning a stupid war that only happened because of nationalistic fervour, nothing more."

They did try to negotiate -- Chamberlain in Munich -- and it didn't help at all. The Brits had no bargaining leverage. They would have been left alone for a while and then -- along with the Swiss, the Swedes, the Spaniards, etc. -- eventually devoured by a Germany grown unstoppable. Winston was in many respects a cranky old reactionary. What made Churchill a household name was his gut recognition of the absolute threat posed by Hitler's Germany and his genius for inspiring people (appealing to their, uh, patriotism). Lucky thing he was in the right place at the right time.

And good thing he was chucked back out in the '45 election to make way for Old Labour.

Comrade · Jul 25, 2004, 12:48 am

You people define patriotism a lot differently than I do. You make it out to be some disease of the "sheep," that it is dumb people in reactionary us vs. them mode, and that it is all perpetrated by some governmental conspiracy, then complaints that people call you unpatriotic for hating your country.
I'm sure you all would prefer it if everyone hated their country (so long as they live in America or Israel).

I consider patriotism as being proud of your country. I'm proud of my country, and the things its accomplished, and what it stands for. I'm terribly sorry if you believe that makes me a naive sheep.

Nono · Jul 25, 2004, 05:22 am

Comrade: "I'm sure you all would prefer it if everyone hated their country (so long as they live in America or Israel)."

Your certainty is misplaced. The idea isn't to hate your country, the idea is to view it objectively. Try it sometime.

"I consider patriotism as being proud of your country. I'm proud of my country, and the things its accomplished, and what it stands for. I'm terribly sorry if you believe that makes me a naive sheep. "

Stop putting words in our mouths.

Are you personally responsible for any of those accomplishments? Or did you just happen to be born into them? What could you possibly mean by "proud"?

I'm GRATEFUL to have been born where I was, and duly appreciate the many blessings. But pride is something to be avoided.

G. Adams · Jul 26, 2004, 04:15 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nono,
G. Adams: "Only after World War II ..."

I think that's true, and not only in Britain. The guys who came back from WWII were in no mood to return to the bottom of the heap.

"It would have been better for GB to enter into negotiations with Germany straight away rather than beginning a stupid war that only happened because of nationalistic fervour, nothing more."

They did try to negotiate -- Chamberlain in Munich -- and it didn't help at all. The Brits had no bargaining leverage. They would have been left alone for a while and then -- along with the Swiss, the Swedes, the Spaniards, etc. -- eventually devoured by a Germany grown unstoppable. Winston was in many respects a cranky old reactionary. What made Churchill a household name was his gut recognition of the absolute threat posed by Hitler's Germany and his genius for inspiring people (appealing to their, uh, patriotism). Lucky thing he was in the right place at the right time.

And good thing he was chucked back out in the '45 election to make way for Old Labour.

When I was talking about negotiations, I was referring to World War I. I wouldn't negotiate with a fascist, but then they don't negotiate. They may have ceasefires or peace talks, but it's only a stop gap before the next attack.

And Churchill was a despicable reactionary in every sense of the word, but he was neccesary at the time, and I appreciate what he did. Just like Thatcher, I hate her and what she did, but I accept that the changes were neccesary, she should have just helped cushion the blow for all the now redundant workers, and the communities built around those industries she killed.

Comrade · Jul 27, 2004, 03:40 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Nono,
Comrade: "I'm sure you all would prefer it if everyone hated their country (so long as they live in America or Israel)."

Your certainty is misplaced. The idea isn't to hate your country, the idea is to view it objectively. Try it sometime.

Assuming my country is the root of all evil and misery in the world is being objective? I believe people are responsible for their own actions. Nobody forced the hijackers to drive planes into a building, no matter how much you trumpet the "root causes."

"I consider patriotism as being proud of your country. I'm proud of my country, and the things its accomplished, and what it stands for. I'm terribly sorry if you believe that makes me a naive sheep. "

Stop putting words in our mouths.

Are you personally responsible for any of those accomplishments? Or did you just happen to be born into them? What could you possibly mean by "proud"?

Proud. You know, one of feelings. Being a part of this country makes me happy.

I'm GRATEFUL to have been born where I was, and duly appreciate the many blessings. But pride is something to be avoided.
There's a difference between pride and being "proud of"

Paavo · Jul 27, 2004, 06:20 am

Quote:

Assuming my country is the root of all evil and misery in the world is being objective?

What's with the black and white thinking?
"If you don't like Pepsi, you must looooooove Coke, huh??!?!?" <-- wrong.
I like my country alot, although I see its many faults. There is something like trying to be objective, it's not loving or hating only.

Rainbow · Jul 27, 2004, 07:45 pm

There are certain words and their meanings that "gentlemen" do not talk about, especially in public places.
Others MAY say about a person's patriotism, dignity, honor, pride, ect. and not an interested body about itself.
These are so unique and specific valors/values attached to every one of us that characterise every single being, among us all.

Do I "love" my country ?
Sure, I do.
Without families, a country does not exist, since no man can create a nation or a state alone.
I love my family (and I believe that almost all of Us), as the first and main "unit". That family is the base for all the values/valors a person learns from (or about) and to be taught.

Am I a patriot ?
There are too much people around to talk about it, guys.

Jul 13, 2004, 11:27 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
m5lange1 Igneous Magma Posts: 654	Patriotism is acting on/supporting whatever you think is good for your country. As long as you are truly interested in what is good for your country. Example 1.Supporting your country at war is patriotic. To do otherwise is treasonous. Example 2. To activly resist your country going into a war you believe to be unjust is patriotc. To do otherwise is treasonous. If either is a consistant belief that is patriotism. If these beliefs switch according to who is in charge, that is stupidity. ( yea the first thing that comes to mind for me IS that bunch that screamed "wag the dog" when Clinton went to war and called those posing alterior motives for Bush's war treasonous..... but the door DOES swing both ways) M5 Protester against the culture war!!!!

Jul 13, 2004, 08:10 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" We are all raised to love our country, so we do. It's not instinctive. It cannot be. England has been England, not in name but as a geographical country, yet there have been numerous wars between different areas continued almost constantly until Henry Tudor won the War of the Roses. Did everyone have an instinctive love for England, even if they were tearing it apart? No, they had been raised in an environment to love a particular community and lord. Only from the time of Disraeli did nationalism become prevelant, and this was due to the external threat of French invasion. This feeling of national identity was fostered through massive propaganda. It wouldn't matter to the people at the bottom of the country who ran it, whether they were British (because they wern't, they were German afterall) or French. But did it matter to the aristocracy and the burgeoning middle classes? Of course, they didn't want someone else taking their land. But how can they protect it? By fostering the false belief that we're all British, we're all in this together, and we won't be beaten by those baby eating Frenchies! So everyone helped, and the rich were saved. But were the poor saved from their enemies? Starvation, filthy water, poor housing, no education, no votes? Nope, of course they wern't, nothing changed. During World War I the working class of GB were told if we win this war, those who return will come back to a land fit for heroes? What happened? They pinned a bit of metal, and sent them back to the slums they came from with whatever wounds or disabilities they accrued fighting for what amounts to nothing but British pride. Only after World War II did anything change here, and that was because a social democratic government was elected, Labour, who at least made the first steps to a better Britain. Patriotism has been seperated more recently from Nationalism only because some people who cling to the belief that loving your country is a good and real thing while other nationalists commit things they disagree with. Nothing more. It would have been better for Britain to be invaded by France and gotten rid of our monarchy. It would have been better for GB to enter into negotiations with Germany straight away rather than beginning a stupid war that only happened because of nationalistic fervour, nothing more. That would have averted World War II. But none of these things could have been said at the time because they are all unpatriotic, hell most would tell me they are unpatriotic now. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jul 15, 2004, 11:56 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Patriotism is the strongest force in the world. Even ideology can't beat it. In 1941 when the Soviet Union was attacked, Communism failed to unite the soldiers. Stalin's portrait failed. It wasn't until he declared it was a war for Russia that the Russians finally began to fight. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jul 16, 2004, 03:36 am	#8 (permalink) (top)
katar Molten Ash Location: L.A. or Portland Posts: 99	Because as humans we decided to draw lines on maps and divide and subdivide land. Then each space on the map developed separate food, music, flag, culture, language, etc... So there are bonds of commonality among one's countrymen. Humans like to identify with larger groups, and one's country is a convenient large group with well-defined common traits. http://www.volconvo.com/forums/showpost.php?p=64897&postcount=95

Jul 16, 2004, 08:19 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
bugsbunny04 Untrained Fodder Location: Alabama Posts: 1,354	Loyaltiy to your country. Patriotism is the idea that you would defend the ideals. Clean toe caps and a filthy mouth! Low morals and high morale!

Jul 13, 2004, 10:27 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	I was reading through this thread at another forum and it really made me think - mostly because we Finns are a fairly patriotic bunch. But why do we feel pride of our country? It's not like we have done anything to be born there. And how come there are patriots in every country in the world? For me, it follows the same ill logic as religion. How can it possible be that people are so convinced they're right - because that's what they're told from day one. It's like a virus that just leaps from generation to generation and won't go away - because it's script has a never ending loop in it. I usually laugh and feel disgust at the incredible amount of cheese in American TV shows and the patriotism in them - and people on this board too. But never had I really thought of my own patriotism critically in the same way. Okay, our patriotistic propaganda isn't as cheesy and blatant in the same way American tends to be, but our culture isn't anything like the American overall anyway. How can one sit down, really think about it, and still justify the thoughts of your own country being so much better than the next one?

Jul 13, 2004, 11:30 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	Yeah - I'm not talking about the word "patriotism", more trying to understand why people are patriotic. I'm looking for the reasons, the logic, the underlying factors and who benefits from patriotism. And I'm not talking about American patriotism only, I'm talking about the whole concept.

Jul 13, 2004, 03:22 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Sodfather Igneous Magma Posts: 327	Paavo, have you ever heard the Greek word "storge?" It is one of the four degrees of love about which ancient Greeks such as Aristotle philosophized, and describes a love that is instinctive and familial. I believe storge is an excellent explanation as to why citizens love their nations instinctively--just as a child loves his mother, father, and siblings. Children do not conscientiously choose to love family members, but rather it naturally occurs. In this manner citizens instinctively love the nation in which they are born. To compare these two occurences of storge furthermore, each love can also be severed as the indvidual develops his or her own conscience. A cruel dictator may come to power, and the individual ceases to love his country not just with a storge love, but any type of love. So is the case in the family system. The father may become abusive, and the child's love can cease to exist.

Jul 15, 2004, 11:33 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
Johnny Rebel Sedimentary Rock Posts: 5	Let's look at it like this, lets just hyopethically say that there are only two nations in the world. The Soviet Union and the United States. Now lets say we got just average run of the mill middle class joe. Now he looks at his nation (the United States) and says, 'we got it alot better over here then those reds do, I mean, the people over here get more for what they work for, we can say what we want without worrying about getting shipped off to God's freezer, and dammit, I can take a piss without having a camera watching me. Now over there, those people are a bunch of disgruntled, poor, vodka drunk hopeless saps.' So then he gets to thinking, he sees how his country treats it's people better (IE doesn't keep them behind a wall with machine guns), ya know, just little stuff like no deny people of their humanity....that kind of thing. So he says, I'm a hard working fellow, and I contribute to this country, and we're doing better then Premier Boris and the Blungering Bolsheviks, so takes his pride in his nation because it's actions pleases and are comparitavely better then other nations, and as someone who contributes to it's well being, he gets a natural sense of pride and Patriotism for his country. Now maybe it's just my ignorant American Cowboyism speaking, but I would consider a country that commits mass genocide (throw a dart at the continent of Africa), worse then one that doesn't. But I guess that's just that typical dumb American spewing his overrated common sense. Well that's the Cowboy's take on American Patriotism at least. But I doubt there were too many patriots in Rhowanda (that weren't carrying weapons of course).

Jul 17, 2004, 04:36 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,161	Patriotism is not loyalty to ideals. Patriotism is loyalty to your country. What you interpret beyond that is up to you. Otherwise, how could any British person be patriotic? We don't have ideals. Our country was established on power and warfare, not ideals. Only the most Nietzchian of people could be loyal to such a founding. Johnny Rebel - The person in the US thinks "my country is better because I am free to go about my business without interference, the right to say what I like, and I'm free to become rich if I work hard enough (poor ignorant fool)" The Soviet thinks "my country is better because everyone has a job, everyone has enough food and provision to live, everyone has free healthcare, everyone can go to university". Poor ignorant fool. Don't fool yourself, your country and every otherone revolves around power, whether it's obvious as in a dictatorship or more subtley in "democracies". Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Jul 19, 2004, 11:28 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	Well yeah....countries revolve around power. It's happened from the beginning of time, when Oga's tribe beat up Oonga's tribe for domination of the Great Cave. Hell, people revolve around power. Why do you think the same leaders of idealistic revolutions end up becoming dictators ("The people love me, elections are for dirty capitalist pig-dogs!")? Humans seek power. The elite want to keep their power, the underdogs want to become the elite (under the guide of idealism), and everyone in between wants a bigger piece of the pie. The only ideal that have ever lasted throughout history is power. Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jul 21, 2004, 08:14 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
Samildanach Pragmatist Location: UK London Posts: 1,979	Patriotism is basically a glorified form of nationalism in which more or less serves ones country to some degree. Nationalism/patriotism are more or less what is stopping us from unifying as a global culture. They are particularly bad traits to be encouraging IMHO. If you want to be proud of something try being patriotic about the planet. I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs and insanity for everyone, but its always worked for me. Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime." (Ernest Hemingway)

Jul 23, 2004, 05:12 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,161	Holy jeez, I actually read all the way through Paavo's post without getting vertigo from this ceasely nodding cranium on the left. Not bad, eh? It asks some excellent questions. How is it that Finns or Americans or Fijians JUST HAPPEN to have concluded, after judicious and sober consideration of the pertinent facts, that -- by a wild chance -- they live in God's Country? What a coincidence, eh? The Finns' patriotism is intensified by feelings of uniqueness -- the only non-Germanic country in Scandanavia, that unassuming little nation that gave Stalin a bloody nose, etc. -- but any country, or smaller entity, can crank up a good dose of chauvinism if it puts its mind to it. And that's human nature because, I think, we evolved in small clutches of people who relied on internal solidarity for group survival. Sodfather: "Citizens instinctively love the nation in which they are born." Right, otherwise known as tribalism: my tribe, dammit, and love it or leave it. G. Adams: "... external threat ... " This always helps forge the feeling of tribe. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 23, 2004, 05:17 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,161	G. Adams: "Only after World War II ..." I think that's true, and not only in Britain. The guys who came back from WWII were in no mood to return to the bottom of the heap. "It would have been better for GB to enter into negotiations with Germany straight away rather than beginning a stupid war that only happened because of nationalistic fervour, nothing more." They did try to negotiate -- Chamberlain in Munich -- and it didn't help at all. The Brits had no bargaining leverage. They would have been left alone for a while and then -- along with the Swiss, the Swedes, the Spaniards, etc. -- eventually devoured by a Germany grown unstoppable. Winston was in many respects a cranky old reactionary. What made Churchill a household name was his gut recognition of the absolute threat posed by Hitler's Germany and his genius for inspiring people (appealing to their, uh, patriotism). Lucky thing he was in the right place at the right time. And good thing he was chucked back out in the '45 election to make way for Old Labour. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 25, 2004, 12:48 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	You people define patriotism a lot differently than I do. You make it out to be some disease of the "sheep," that it is dumb people in reactionary us vs. them mode, and that it is all perpetrated by some governmental conspiracy, then complaints that people call you unpatriotic for hating your country. I'm sure you all would prefer it if everyone hated their country (so long as they live in America or Israel). I consider patriotism as being proud of your country. I'm proud of my country, and the things its accomplished, and what it stands for. I'm terribly sorry if you believe that makes me a naive sheep. Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Jul 25, 2004, 05:22 am	#16 (permalink) (top)
Nono Throbbing Member Location: Old Europe Posts: 7,161	Comrade: "I'm sure you all would prefer it if everyone hated their country (so long as they live in America or Israel)." Your certainty is misplaced. The idea isn't to hate your country, the idea is to view it objectively. Try it sometime. "I consider patriotism as being proud of your country. I'm proud of my country, and the things its accomplished, and what it stands for. I'm terribly sorry if you believe that makes me a naive sheep. " Stop putting words in our mouths. Are you personally responsible for any of those accomplishments? Or did you just happen to be born into them? What could you possibly mean by "proud"? I'm GRATEFUL to have been born where I was, and duly appreciate the many blessings. But pride is something to be avoided. "I wish I was as cocksure of anything as Tom Macaulay is of everything." -- Viscount Melbourne

Jul 27, 2004, 07:45 pm	#20 (permalink) (top)
Rainbow Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	There are certain words and their meanings that "gentlemen" do not talk about, especially in public places. Others MAY say about a person's patriotism, dignity, honor, pride, ect. and not an interested body about itself. These are so unique and specific valors/values attached to every one of us that characterise every single being, among us all. Do I "love" my country ? Sure, I do. Without families, a country does not exist, since no man can create a nation or a state alone. I love my family (and I believe that almost all of Us), as the first and main "unit". That family is the base for all the values/valors a person learns from (or about) and to be taught. Am I a patriot ? There are too much people around to talk about it, guys.