How do you convince the mob

[HelioPrime]

Another healthcare related thread, this time more of a debate:

For this thread I'll assume this stance: Healthcare is not a right anyone has, and not a right any government must offer its people. If people want healthcare they work to earn it. (feel free to modify as you see fit)

Now here is the bigger question: How do you convince the mob to accept this ideal on healthcare?

-Face the facts, head to any forums where mothers, college students, gay men, liberals, etc prowl and they will cry bloody murder at anyone who is anti-global healthcare. Some will argue its a right as children of god to have access to equal healthcare, others will say its a natural human right, and with all our wealth we must give a hand.

-Face the face we live in a near democracy. The mob rules because elected leaders aim to please the mob. Unless you change the mindset of the mob libertarians and other groups will always be in the minority and never see any of their ideals accepted.

Obviously just telling them their wrong will gain nothing. So my question is how best to go about teaching people that healthcare isn't a human/natural/moral right? Feel free to offer any ideas.

How do you sell your ideas to the mob?

[shawmutt]

A point to ponder--per capita spending on health care by the U.S. government placed it among the top ten highest spenders among United Nations member countries in 2004--yet the U.S. is one of the world's few industrialized nations that does not guarantee access to health care.

Something's not right there.

Face the facts, head to any forums where mothers, college students, gay men, liberals, etc prowl and they will cry bloody murder at anyone who is anti-global healthcare.

Ad hominem.

[another day]

The fact is, a non-government health care system is open to wide exploitation by corporations. Health care is something all people will eventually need. As an industry, this exposes it to said exploitation when health care corporations choose to charge exorbitant prices for their services because they know people have no other choice.

I have no problem paying taxes for a socialized health care system. The chances of you never benefitting from such a system are infinitesimal, everyone eventually encounters health problems and will use the system. This is different from say, paying taxes for a public transit system where many people who drive will never use it.

[Chaossaber314]

I think National Health Care is a more complicated issue than a lot of people give it credit.

For instance, I agree with your stance, Helio, as far as adults are concerned but I dissent on children up to age 18. I think they should have a right to health care since they lack the mental functioning, ability, skills, or experience to be responsible for their own. Sure their parents should be responsible but to leave it at that is to say essentially "F you if you have sh*tty parents".

As far as National Health Care is concerned in the US for everyone, I'm not so concerned with the institution of a program at it's base. However, my fundamental problem with it is that it does not even acknowledge let alone fix the real problems that plague current health care... If health care and insurance wasn't so insanely difficult to get and too expensive to maintain, we wouldn't need a national health care system. If people weren't being denied care based upon the greed of certain business models there wouldn't be the need for a different program at all.

How do you sell an ideal to the mob you ask? Eliminate the fear many Americans have of even going to the doctor because if they find something seriously wrong there's a good chance that any operation they might need will result in them losing their home in a foreclosure. If you want people to listen to you, you need to provide an answer to the problems that endanger their day to day lives.

Telling someone, "I'm sorry, but you simply don't have a right to health care" is about as empty as you can get if you don't address why many people in this country who are not in fact dead beats trying to milk the system, can't afford it in the first place.

[HelioPrime]

Thanks for the answers. Now where are the opponents to national healthcare?

Just asking how you would try and convince people to listen to your point of view.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 I think National Health Care is a more complicated issue than a lot of people give it credit. For instance, I agree with your stance, Helio, as far as adults are concerned but I dissent on children up to age 18. I think they should have a right to health care since they lack the mental functioning, ability, skills, or experience to be responsible for their own. Sure their parents should be responsible but to leave it at that is to say essentially "F you if you have sh*tty parents".

That is the part of this debate that upsets me the most, because all that does is garuntee that people who cannot afford to have children will dump the burden on the rest of us.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Milton Bradley That is the part of this debate that upsets me the most, because all that does is garuntee that people who cannot afford to have children will dump the burden on the rest of us.

It takes a village.

Unless you mandate who can have children and when in their lives they are allowed to do so, this will still be a problem regardless of National Health Care being assured to children.

[simple simon]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 For instance, I agree with your stance, Helio, as far as adults are concerned but I dissent on children up to age 18. I think they should have a right to health care since they lack the mental functioning, ability, skills, or experience to be responsible for their own. Sure their parents should be responsible but to leave it at that is to say essentially "F you if you have sh*tty parents".

Quote by: Milton Bradley That is the part of this debate that upsets me the most, because all that does is garuntee that people who cannot afford to have children will dump the burden on the rest of us.

please realize it doesnt always work that way ..... sometimes there are circumstances beyond a parents control .... death or disability for example

[Tycoon]

Well, I know nothing about the healthcare issue...

But obviously the best way to convince any mob is by telling them what's in it for them. Unless there's nothing in it for them.

I saw a commercial yesterday against four propositions that involved taxing Native American gaming casinos. I didn't think it went down well - and I'm sure it isn't, because it was all about how it's not fair for them.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: helioprime For this thread I'll assume this stance: Healthcare is not a right anyone has, and not a right any government must offer its people. If people want healthcare they work to earn it. (feel free to modify as you see fit) Now here is the bigger question: How do you convince the mob to accept this ideal on healthcare?

You convince the mob (me included), by dispelling the idea that insurance companies are a worse option. That insurance companies goal is to keep money and they lose money every time they pay out. That medical bills are the biggest cause of bankruptcy. That if someone is seriously I'll, you'd treat them regardless of financial standing. Also, as an add on, treating the public for prevention is cheaper on the whole and healthier for everyone.

Convince me exactly what is wrong with this, and it is best to do it using the Socratic Method. Though I usual sound sure on the forums so my argument doesn't lose power, I genuinely think there ups and downs to both methods. I'm not taking a moral side (except doctors must always treat the patient in front of them), rather the money saving one and general health one. (I'm fairly well off, but I also don't pay taxes yet, so I am slightly bias)


Also, here's how politicians do it. If an opponent suggests raising the retirement age three years to save social security, it is ease to just play an ad depicting 90 year olds working at a car manufacturing plant in his state over and over again. Then call it "xxx's retirement plan." The opponent is toast before elections even begin.
Convincing the public isn't always pretty nor is it always fair.

But I'm an ends-justify-the-means guy (as fiendish as it makes me sound.)

[HelioPrime]

Quote by: Tycoon Well, I know nothing about the healthcare issue... But obviously the best way to convince any mob is by telling them what's in it for them. Unless there's nothing in it for them. I saw a commercial yesterday against four propositions that involved taxing Native American gaming casinos. I didn't think it went down well - and I'm sure it isn't, because it was all about how it's not fair for them.

If pro-healthcare candidates come to power you can be fairly certain they try and show people their point of view. I'd expect commercials on all major networks with sad children in rags, hungry looking adults, all done in black and white or grey to show depression and hopelessness. The result would be an emotion tugging attack to make people see any opponents of national healthcare as heartless fiends. I'm the christian right will be among the first to rush to national healthcare.

But what kind if information could you present to show the opposite point of view?

I know there are a number of you around here who don't want healthcare globalized. How would you teach people your view?

[Winter wind]

Quote by: helioprime I know there are a number of you around here who don't want healthcare globalized. How would you teach people your view?

Simple. Show a side by side comparison between dictatorial regimes and how government would control health care. Control their working places and so on. Go onto youtube and listen to "Ronald Regan speaks out against socialized medicine" for a good example.

Make it funny, but outraging and you have your ad.

[Chaossaber314]

How do you convince the mob against Universal Health Care?

Produce a counter system that fixes the problems with the current system.