Are We Headed For '1984'

[simple simon]

seems so many are so worried about our freedoms being taken away ..... does anyone believe we are actually headed to a '1984' type scenario ?

if so when ?

im so tired of the NWO conspiracy nuts ...... if a group is trying to take over the world it seems to me they are doing a lousy job of it

[Chaossaber314]

I think you'll find that this forum is split between two answers to your question.

#1 - No, we are not headed for a 1984 dystopian society.

or

#2 - We're already there.

[simple simon]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 #2 - We're already there.

i think we have a long way to go to reach Orwellian levels .... but i suppose we could be headed in that direction ..... though as i said .. if we are it just seems to be taking too damn long to get there

[Jack]

If indeed we are being conditioned for an eventual 1984 lifestyle, it would make sense to deploy such a program on a local scale first. Get citizens in cities to accept the state's intrusion on our rights to prevent crime in neighborhoods, then later roll it out nationwide. Sell the idea of traffic cameras as a deterrent to speeding and reckless driving, neighborhood cameras to discourage theft, vandalism and assaults, workplace monitoring to catch thieves; no one is going to object too loudly to those noble motivations. And no one will notice when the cameras and monitoring devices are reconfigured to serve other, less noble, purposes.

I'm not a conspiracy buff, but I did work at the NSA and have a fairly realistic view of what the government is capable of doing if it wanted to pursue a 1984 scenario. It's not a matter of science fiction. It is a matter of national security and paranoia versus liberty. At this moment in time I'm not sure which side will prevail.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Isherwood If indeed we are being conditioned for an eventual 1984 lifestyle, it would make sense to deploy such a program on a local scale first. Get citizens in cities to accept the state's intrusion on our rights to prevent crime in neighborhoods, then later roll it out nationwide. Sell the idea of traffic cameras as a deterrent to speeding and reckless driving, neighborhood cameras to discourage theft, vandalism and assaults, workplace monitoring to catch thieves; no one is going to object too loudly to those noble motivations. And no one will notice when the cameras and monitoring devices are reconfigured to serve other, less noble, purposes.

Well, since we already have traffic cameras and workplace monitoring...

I'm not a conspiracy buff, but I did work at the NSA and have a fairly realistic view of what the government is capable of doing if it wanted to pursue a 1984 scenario. It's not a matter of science fiction. It is a matter of national security and paranoia versus liberty. At this moment in time I'm not sure which side will prevail.

National security paranoia will prevail and will then be replaced by international security paranoia.

[G. Adams]

I very much doubt it. I'd say Huxley's Brave New World is much closer to the mark. Why waste so much time and effort using violence to oppress people, when you can get them to agree to their own slavery?

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: G. Adams I very much doubt it. I'd say Huxley's Brave New World is much closer to the mark. Why waste so much time and effort using violence to oppress people, when you can get them to agree to their own slavery?

It certainly would be an interesting twist on the conspiracy regarding the CIA and the drug trade. Perhaps our current drug market is an attempt to condition society to become slow witted and reliant upon addictive substances? Sure would explain why we have a quote unquote "War on Drugs" and at the same time our entertainers and other youth role models are allowed to glorify the lifestyle.

Hell, one could even argue that our fields of psychology and psychiatry are responsible for the same thing. The medication of our children for ADD? Antidepressants etc?

I started this post attempting to be facetious and found myself sliding away from that at the end...

Soma is already here.

[Compugasm]

Quote by: Isherwood If indeed we are being conditioned for an eventual 1984 lifestyle...

It's been a while since someone posted in the Characteristics Of A Police State thread. Good read still.

[gallo]

Given Huckabee's recent remarks on amending the Constitution to conform to his idea of what his god wants, I'm more afraid of a Taliban like state if he should be elected.

[Compugasm]

I don't have a link handy, but he said that comment was simply a poor choice of words.

...amend the Constitution so it’s in God’s standards rather than trying to change God’s standards ..

Unless you want to make the argument that Gods standards are easy to change? First, there are those who simply don't believe in God and thus, neither do they believe in those standards. Second, of those who do believe in God one will not find consensus as to what those standards are and how they are interpreted.

I can see how his "amend the Constitution" comment seems alarming, but rather silly to believe he actually could/would change the constitution.

[Winter wind]

The one step that really makes the difference between 1984 and what we have is that the people (like you) will always make a ruckus whenever the slightest liberty is taken away. The fact that you can do it without vanishing off the face of the earth still means 1984 is a long long way away. The government may watch, but every time they immorally act on that information, they get b--tched slapped by viewers like you. (pbs rox)

[grandpa]

Quote by: Winter wind The one step that really makes the difference between 1984 and what we have is that the people (like you) will always make a ruckus whenever the slightest liberty is taken away. The fact that you can do it without vanishing off the face of the earth still means 1984 is a long long way away.

It does seem like the coprorate state is somewhat afraid of Americans, though it still gets away with quite a lot.

Grandpa h.

[Winter wind]

It does seem like the coprorate state is somewhat afraid of Americans, though it still gets away with quite a lot.

its evil corporations, what did you expect...

[Tycoon]

I don't know Winter, what should I expect? You should know, your avatar is from Disney...

[G. Adams]

Quote by: Winter wind The one step that really makes the difference between 1984 and what we have is that the people (like you) will always make a ruckus whenever the slightest liberty is taken away. The fact that you can do it without vanishing off the face of the earth still means 1984 is a long long way away. The government may watch, but every time they immorally act on that information, they get b--tched slapped by viewers like you. (pbs rox)

Yeah, we make a ruckus. Then they go ahead and do it anyway, while painting the objectors as tinfoil hatters/moonbats/reactionaries/old fashioned defenders of liberty who, while maybe well intentioned, just don't understand what is happening today.

Just because we're paranoid doesn't mean we're wrong....

[G. Adams]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 It certainly would be an interesting twist on the conspiracy regarding the CIA and the drug trade. Perhaps our current drug market is an attempt to condition society to become slow witted and reliant upon addictive substances? Sure would explain why we have a quote unquote "War on Drugs" and at the same time our entertainers and other youth role models are allowed to glorify the lifestyle. Hell, one could even argue that our fields of psychology and psychiatry are responsible for the same thing. The medication of our children for ADD? Antidepressants etc? I started this post attempting to be facetious and found myself sliding away from that at the end... Soma is already here.

I've always considered the vast push to have us all doped up by legal drugs suspicious. Not in a conspiratorial way, but in a kind of mutual advantage way. The corporations want to make money, so they create a drug for every possible negative symptom, knowing that people will rather pop a pill than make the lifestyle changes that will solve most of these problems. So we get doped up on anti-depressents, or Ritalin, tranq's, or whatever our approved drug of choice is. At the same time, government does nothing because it makes us all more malleable to their intentions.

Quote: "a gramme in time saves nine," Lenina, Chapter 6, Part 1, pg. 89 Quote: "One cubic centimetre cures ten gloomy sentiments," Lenina, Chapter 6, Part 1, pg. 89 Quote: "A gramme is better than a damn." Lenina, Chapter 6, Part 1, pg. 89 Quote: "When the individual feels, the community reels." Lenina, Chapter 6, Part 1, pg. 94

It's funny how writers in the past predict these things happening, and at the time every considers them impossible because we would never tolerate such conditions. Then when they come about, we excuse ourselves for letting it happen saying we're doing it for some noble cause. But in the books they are often doing them for noble causes too.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: tycoon I don't know Winter, what should I expect? You should know, your avatar is from Disney...

oh no you didn't!
I just don't wanna grow up...

Quote by: g. adams Yeah, we make a ruckus. Then they go ahead and do it anyway, while painting the objectors as tinfoil hatters/moonbats/reactionaries/old fashioned defenders of liberty who, while maybe well intentioned, just don't understand what is happening today.

well that's how it works. You yell at them for being the new Nazis, money grubbers, and warmongering. Then they yell at you for being reactionaries, paranoid, and unrealistic. The difference is that the law of the United States says (exceptions being obscenity, libel, and clear and present danger) that you can't be persecuted for saying that. While it doesn't always work out like that, if you think your liberties are oppressed, then you really don't have any appreciation for how lucky you are to live where speech is free. (Actually, your from the UK so the exact law is different). I live in China where they have arrested protesters by the wagon load. Way beyond anything America saw during the red scare. (and don't even start on the cultural revolution).
No, you don't get to say America is a fascist state because it isn't, China isn't even a fascist state, but it's closer. A fascist state is the USSR under Stalin, or China during the cultural revolution. If you think America has reached that level, take a sign that says "bush sucks" and walk on the sidewalk. If you don't get arrested by secret police to be "re-educated", then you aren't in a fascist state yet. (not an acid test but damn close.)

[G. Adams]

Quote by: Winter wind oh no you didn't! I just don't wanna grow up... well that's how it works. You yell at them for being the new Nazis, money grubbers, and warmongering. Then they yell at you for being reactionaries, paranoid, and unrealistic. The difference is that the law of the United States says (exceptions being obscenity, libel, and clear and present danger) that you can't be persecuted for saying that. While it doesn't always work out like that, if you think your liberties are oppressed, then you really don't have any appreciation for how lucky you are to live where speech is free. (Actually, your from the UK so the exact law is different). I live in China where they have arrested protesters by the wagon load. Way beyond anything America saw during the red scare. (and don't even start on the cultural revolution). No, you don't get to say America is a fascist state because it isn't, China isn't even a fascist state, but it's closer. A fascist state is the USSR under Stalin, or China during the cultural revolution. If you think America has reached that level, take a sign that says "bush sucks" and walk on the sidewalk. If you don't get arrested by secret police to be "re-educated", then you aren't in a fascist state yet. (not an acid test but damn close.)

If you wanted to run a succesful totalitarian state, would you openly follow the measures of states that failed trying the same project? Why would any would be megalomaniac with intelligence used methods proved to fail? Much better then to use methods that work. Propaganda? Yup, Goebbels and USSR did succeed with these, so keep. Disarmament? Sure, if the populace are disarmed they can't resist, and if you spin it right they'll agree to it. Dependancy upon the state? Of course, if you have a large slice of people working for the government, or recieving welfare, they need you. It's Machievellis saying "If you want to stay in power, don't make them love you, don't make them fear you, make them need you." Control education? Of course, the jesuits said give us a child for X years and he'll be ours for life, and this has been demonstrated again and again. Also, you can dumb down the population by selective teaching and discouraging independant enquiry. Foster apathy? Works great, no one believes that politicians will achieve anything, nothing changes, that who rules means little. So people disengage, don't pay attention and when something does happen the only people who do notice are a minority that can be disregarded because, however right they may be, the general populace doesn't care. Gradual expansion of government responsibility? Great. Who would accept in one go that the government will take control over your health, diet, exercise, education, your job, your travel, who you associate with etc. But over the last 100 years (give or take 30 years depending upon which post-industrial state you live in) they have gradually increased their control over all these areas and intend to go further, and we accept it because at one point we said 'this will help in this little way, and it's not much responsibility taken from me', and then bit by bit we accept a little bit more.

I'm not saying this is planned for some sinister plan, but politicians justify their jobs by appearing to do something, so most of them want to do this or that, and bit by bit they take responsibility to do this or that. At which point do we say stop, this isn't government's job?

Having said that, if you know much about the history of socialism you will know that at the time of the Russian revolution, there was a split. Some wanted revolution for socialism, some wanted reform for socialism, but both wanted the government to control as much of everyone's life in order to make everyone equal. The revolutionaries became communists, the reformists became Labour, or SDP, or whichever social democrat party there is. This slow, fabian socialism has always intended to create this socialist system. If you don't believe me read some of their political work, HG Wells, GB Shaw and Bertrand Russel are all exponents of this, and their ideas still form the framework for much of this slow takeover.

[Winter wind]

Quote by: g. adams If you wanted to run a succesful totalitarian state, would you openly follow the measures of states that failed trying the same project?

I'm not going to quote the whole thing for space reasons.

The difference is that there is so much squabbling at the higher points of government, that no party could collectively come to a consensus to pull off what you just described. There's just too much friction. Also, you seem to be pointing at certain things that come from popular demand, rather then political instigation. Common education is in all modern, well off, nations.

My major point is that, you are absolutely free to shout your ideas from the roof tops and no one will arrest you. If you do get arrested, call me. I'm a member of Amnesty international. This, for me, is the difference between fascism and democracy. Also the conflicts that go on in the government is a huge part of America's political culture.

[kingmea]

Quote by: Winter wind The one step that really makes the difference between 1984 and what we have is that the people (like you) will always make a ruckus whenever the slightest liberty is taken away. The fact that you can do it without vanishing off the face of the earth still means 1984 is a long long way away. The government may watch, but every time they immorally act on that information, they get b--tched slapped by viewers like you. (pbs rox)

Patriot act. Passed without any objections even though it trampled upon the right of privacy. Any laws can be passed if the public is emotionally supportive, tricked, or just plain stupid. It was probably a combination of the 3 for the patriotic act after 9/11.

So... since i haven't actually read 1984...yeah. Hope that contributes.