Teaching methods are out-dated.

[Whatssnew]

Why would achient myths (Greek Mythology) be more important than actual history? Such as King Arthur, Queen Elizibeth, the Mongul Hord, or Alexander the Great. Are these people less important, or less interesting? There may not be a moral behind many the stories, but it is better to learn about what can, will, or has happened than tall tales about monsters, or anchient religious beliefs. If you want good moral stories, read the Bible. Such as the story about the protical son. Just because people no longer believe in the Greek gods, does not make it any less religious than the Bible.

Why do teachers need to always teach the same boaring books? My theroy is that what would be best is to give the parents a say in there childrens education. People are always complaining, trying to sue schools, ex... Well you know when you go to a Presidential election they also have other laws for you to vote on at the same time? Why not have parents make decisions on what there children should be learing about in school at parent teacher meetings. For example, for the books to be read for English could be any of twenty or thirty which you want to vote for. When tallied up take five or so and allow the kids to decide wich book they want to read. You see the schools can choose a wide seletion, the parents can limit it to what they think is important, and the kids still get some choice. This way as many people as possible are happy with the choices. Also Books should not repeat in a four year period so as to keep kids from re-reading the same material again. The same idea would apply to books for American History, Math, Geology, ex... This I think would help improve the Education system, and create a fair way of choosing what is to be taught in schools. Please tell me how you feel, and if you think my system is un-fair, or will not work. Thanks for your imput.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: new Why would achient myths (Greek Mythology) be more important than actual history? Such as King Arthur,

Uh...you might want to read up a little on King Arthur.

Quote by: new For example, for the books to be read for English could be any of twenty or thirty which you want to vote for. When tallied up take five or so and allow the kids to decide wich book they want to read. You see the schools can choose a wide seletion, the parents can limit it to what they think is important, and the kids still get some choice. This way as many people as possible are happy with the choices.

Trouble with that ethos is that school isn't there to make people happy; it's there to help them to learn useful skills. You can't expect kids or parents to know which book is the most useful in learning the subject or the skills associated with it.

Then there's the fact that kids must be prepared for external examinations. There's no point in teaching kids the history of Ancient Greece if the exam is going to ask about Ancient Rome. The only way round this would be to have exams tailored to each student's particular learning, rather than the other way round. This would be totally impractical.

[phoenix_fire]

New, I think the problem that we are butting up against is your disapproval for literature that is being taught in English class. Sure it has historical value. But the era and historical content aren't the reason that you have to read them and are, therefore, mostly irrelevant. You read those books to get an idea of the roots of literary style.

[Winter wind]

Damn, and I was hoping for something else.

By the by, I absolutely despise the education system as it is now, because it tries to quantify a year's worth of learning into a letter. Especially when only one person judges the letter.
Also, the current school system treats everyone the same, when every kid has a different way of learning. Home schooling is that much better.

[Athena]

I think you misunderstand the importance of mythology, and dependency on the bible is problematic.

All primitive and civilized people have mythology. Mythlogy transmits culture and transitions the young to adulthood. When people have a shared mythology they will suffer far less from emotional and growing up problems. Without a shared mythology, we turn our parents and people close to us, into the heros and monsters we need for the growing up process. This throws many people into psychoanalysis, to work through their private mythologies. Not a good thing.

Especially Greek mythology teaches us a lot about human nature, and civilization. People in the history books do not do this. Worse, those people in our history books teach us war is a good thing and great people are the ones to who lead their nation to war. This is causing us a huge problem right now! It is a mythology of conquest and conquer that is not helpful to us in a modern world. It is excessively slanted to make people think their own nation is superior and it is devoid of equal information of others.

This bias is one of the things terribly wrong with the bible, which begins with the bias of Hebrews and their tribal God who favors them. Then the bias of Christians. And this progresses to the bias of Arabs in the Koran. These religious bias built on the superstition of a tribal God who has favorite people, is very problematic, and does not provide the information necessary to democracy. The social order of holy books is one of kings and slaves. Not a good model for democracy. Greek myth is about brothers and sisters who are gods, and democracy is an imitation of them. One absolute God can not teach us what brother and sister gods can teach us about democratic relationships and coming to understand life.

I hope you will reconsider what you think is important.

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind Damn, and I was hoping for something else. By the by, I absolutely despise the education system as it is now, because it tries to quantify a year's worth of learning into a letter. Especially when only one person judges the letter. Also, the current school system treats everyone the same, when every kid has a different way of learning. Home schooling is that much better.

When the US built its education on the Athenian model, it was about developing well rounded individuals. It is understanding we are equal under the law, but as different as the gods. The teacher's job was to help each student discover his own interest and talents, and even the village idiot has his important place in the greater society. It resulted in a culture much kinder than our present culture.

Education for technology is for a limited range of IQ and is very demoralizing to those who do not excell in this limited IQ range. Your dislike of this, is intelligent.

[Athena]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Uh...you might want to read up a little on King Arthur. Trouble with that ethos is that school isn't there to make people happy; it's there to help them to learn useful skills. You can't expect kids or parents to know which book is the most useful in learning the subject or the skills associated with it. Then there's the fact that kids must be prepared for external examinations. There's no point in teaching kids the history of Ancient Greece if the exam is going to ask about Ancient Rome. The only way round this would be to have exams tailored to each student's particular learning, rather than the other way round. This would be totally impractical.

The other side of the problem is changes in our social order that lock out people who have excellent intelligence and would do jobs very well, but can not access them without the required education. That required education, is not promoting intelligence, but is programming human brains to serve the Industiral/Military Complex, and this education does not give a hoot about individual potential. It doesn't even mean the people who get the jobs are the best people for the job. It does mean, we have put our society into a controlled state that results in atrophy and death of civilizations.

[Winter wind]

Education for technology is for a limited range of IQ and is very demoralizing to those who do not excell in this limited IQ range. Your dislike of this, is intelligent.

Aww, shucks. I'm blushing. But really I've had a passionate dislike for the education system for years. It isn't just because I don't like homework, though I don't, but because I've seen extraordinarily intelligent kids get lower grades because they hate their classes. These kids also seem to be the exact same ones that are picked on by the other students. My most recent reason is because a learning specialist at my school has been fired, because they are shutting down the learning center at our school. The last place where kids could be taught both one on one and where they got strategies to set the system to work for them. The one-size-fits-all school policy gets stronger.
It's not the teachers, who should be paid six figure salaries, that are evil, nor is it the administration or parents. It's just the system in place.

[Winter wind]

Trouble with that ethos is that school isn't there to make people happy; it's there to help them to learn useful skills.

I have learned no life skills in school except how to beat the system.
The problem with schools is while it is supposed to teach useful skills, it instead teaches people to try and earn a grade.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Winter wind Aww, shucks. I'm blushing. But really I've had a passionate dislike for the education system for years. It isn't just because I don't like homework, though I don't, but because I've seen extraordinarily intelligent kids get lower grades because they hate their classes. These kids also seem to be the exact same ones that are picked on by the other students. My most recent reason is because a learning specialist at my school has been fired, because they are shutting down the learning center at our school. The last place where kids could be taught both one on one and where they got strategies to set the system to work for them. The one-size-fits-all school policy gets stronger. It's not the teachers, who should be paid six figure salaries, that are evil, nor is it the administration or parents. It's just the system in place.

You might find this interesting: John Taylor Gatto - Challenging the Myths of Modern Schooling and Against School, by John Taylor Gatto

[Winter wind]

The next question is, what do we change the school system to?

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Whatssnew Why would achient myths (Greek Mythology) be more important than actual history? Such as King Arthur, Queen Elizibeth, the Mongul Hord, or Alexander the Great. Are these people less important, or less interesting? There may not be a moral behind many the stories, but it is better to learn about what can, will, or has happened than tall tales about monsters, or anchient religious beliefs. If you want good moral stories, read the Bible. Such as the story about the protical son. Just because people no longer believe in the Greek gods, does not make it any less religious than the Bible. Why do teachers need to always teach the same boaring books? My theroy is that what would be best is to give the parents a say in there childrens education. People are always complaining, trying to sue schools, ex... Well you know when you go to a Presidential election they also have other laws for you to vote on at the same time? Why not have parents make decisions on what there children should be learing about in school at parent teacher meetings. For example, for the books to be read for English could be any of twenty or thirty which you want to vote for. When tallied up take five or so and allow the kids to decide wich book they want to read. You see the schools can choose a wide seletion, the parents can limit it to what they think is important, and the kids still get some choice. This way as many people as possible are happy with the choices. Also Books should not repeat in a four year period so as to keep kids from re-reading the same material again. The same idea would apply to books for American History, Math, Geology, ex... This I think would help improve the Education system, and create a fair way of choosing what is to be taught in schools. Please tell me how you feel, and if you think my system is un-fair, or will not work. Thanks for your imput.

Your argument seems to have to do with content and not methodology. Go learn the difference between the two and then make your argument.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Winter wind The next question is, what do we change the school system to?

Scrap it entirely! Education is the responsibility of the parents. If a group of parents want to get together and hire someone to teach their children, let them. If some business wants to offer children apprenticeships or if some doctor or lawyer wants to offer apprenticeships, let them.

[Winter wind]

Scrap it entirely! Education is the responsibility of the parents. If a group of parents want to get together and hire someone to teach their children, let them. If some business wants to offer children apprenticeships or if some doctor or lawyer wants to offer apprenticeships, let them.

What if the parent is uncaring? Also, I do think the government should give as much money to educate as they do to the army. Hire more teachers to be able to teach a few students at a time.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Winter wind What if the parent is uncaring?

Not relevant.

Also, I do think the government should give as much money to educate as they do to the army. Hire more teachers to be able to teach a few students at a time.

Then go live in some socialist nanny state! It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what the Constitution says and there is nothing in the Constitution that gives the federal government a role in education. And, since the federal Courts have said the 14th amendment essentially extends the Constititon's limits on the federal government to the states, the states don't have a role in education either.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Chancellor Quote by: Winter wind What if the parent is uncaring? Not relevant.

Of course it's relevant.

Having a populace with the skills needed to thrive socially and economically is a benefit to all. If you can't see that, you're a shortsighted fool.

Education is just as much a matter of the public good as the criminal justice system. They are both pillars of a civilized society.

Then go live in some socialist nanny state! It doesn't matter what you think, it matters what the Constitution says and there is nothing in the Constitution that gives the federal government a role in education.

Perhaps, but since the federal government's role in education is already comparatively small, it wouldn't be a big deal to eliminate it.

And, since the federal Courts have said the 14th amendment essentially extends the Constititon's limits on the federal government to the states, the states don't have a role in education either.

Utter nonsense. Once again, you wield your Constitutional interpretation like a sledgehammer in an operating room - you can see the body you're supposed to work on, but you're using only a blunt instrument to do it.

The 14th Amendment most certainly does not prohibit the states from having a role in education. By your silly logic, the states could do NOTHING that the federal government cannot do and so therefore would be entirely redundant. The 14th Amendment says that the states cannot deny any rights to the citizens which the federal government would be prohibited from denying under the Constitution - for example, a state cannot make a law that overturns the 5th Amendment. By your rationale, the states could not have criminal codes, since the Constitution does not grant the federal government the power to enforce criminal law except in special circumstances.

Obviously, your interpretation is wildly incorrect.

Go back and read the 10th Amendment, and then re-read the 14th.

[brien]

The entire government education system in America needs to be overhauled to meet the needs of the 21st Century. Government must get out of the Education business because they have proven to be a lousy educator.

We also need to redefine the way we fund education in the US It should from a broad based state tax collected on the individual state level rather from the current local property tax level. This would bring all schools into a level funding plan and it would eliminate the large disparities we see in some school districts.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Of course it's relevant. Having a populace with the skills needed to thrive socially and economically is a benefit to all. If you can't see that, you're a shortsighted fool.

A parent being uncaring does not remove the parent's responsibility for educating his or her child and, therefore, being uncaring is irrelevant.

Education is just as much a matter of the public good as the criminal justice system. They are both pillars of a civilized society.

There may very well be public good in having an educated populace but that doesn't mean government should be put in charge of that education - particularly given the dismal failure that these government indoctrination centers (public schools) are.

Perhaps, but since the federal government's role in education is already comparatively small, it wouldn't be a big deal to eliminate it.

I'm not sure No Child Left Behind is a small role in education.

Utter nonsense. Once again, you wield your Constitutional interpretation like a sledgehammer in an operating room - you can see the body you're supposed to work on, but you're using only a blunt instrument to do it.

I don't agree with the interpretation that the limits placed on the federal government extend to the states but it is an interpretation that has often been made.

The 14th Amendment most certainly does not prohibit the states from having a role in education.

If the interpretation often used (extending the federal constitutional limits to the states) is valid (again, I don't agree with that interpretation) then it most certainly would prohibit the states from having a role.

By your silly logic, the states could do NOTHING that the federal government cannot do and so therefore would be entirely redundant.

It's not my logic, it's the logic of those who interpret the 14th amendment to extend federal limits to the states.

The 14th Amendment says that the states cannot deny any rights to the citizens which the federal government would be prohibited from denying under the Constitution - for example, a state cannot make a law that overturns the 5th Amendment. By your rationale, the states could not have criminal codes, since the Constitution does not grant the federal government the power to enforce criminal law except in special circumstances.

Yes, I'm well aware of that. The 14th Amendment is fairly specific. However, that doesn't change how the amendment is often interpreted as limiting the powers of the states.

Obviously, your interpretation is wildly incorrect.

It isn't my interpretation.

Go back and read the 10th Amendment, and then re-read the 14th.

Those who interpret it the way I described would say the 14th amendment supercedes the 10th amendment. Again, it isn't my argument! What the 14th amendment does do, however, is extend the federal government limitations in the Bill of Rights to the states (or so it has also been interpreted).

[grandpa]

Quote by: Chancellor A parent being uncaring does not remove the parent's responsibility for educating his or her child and, therefore, being uncaring is irrelevant. There may very well be public good in having an educated populace but that doesn't mean government should be put in charge of that education - particularly given the dismal failure that these government indoctrination centers (public schools) are.

State schools should have been gone a long time ago (as should have for-profit schools).

That being said, not all schools (whether we call them "public" or "private") are a complete failure.

Grandpa h.

[Athena]

Quote by: Winter wind Aww, shucks. I'm blushing. But really I've had a passionate dislike for the education system for years. It isn't just because I don't like homework, though I don't, but because I've seen extraordinarily intelligent kids get lower grades because they hate their classes. These kids also seem to be the exact same ones that are picked on by the other students. My most recent reason is because a learning specialist at my school has been fired, because they are shutting down the learning center at our school. The last place where kids could be taught both one on one and where they got strategies to set the system to work for them. The one-size-fits-all school policy gets stronger. It's not the teachers, who should be paid six figure salaries, that are evil, nor is it the administration or parents. It's just the system in place.

I keep forgetting you are writing from Hong Kong, China. I thought the schools in China would be different. When I read what you have to say, it sounds like you are talking about the mentality behind the No Child Left Behind Act and the reality of budget cuts. It is interesting that China seems to have the same problems the US schools are having.