Teaching methods are out-dated.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: It is interesting that China seems to have the same problems the US schools are having.

Not to some of us, their both state run educational systems, with the same values behind them.

[Athena]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Of course it's relevant. Having a populace with the skills needed to thrive socially and economically is a benefit to all. If you can't see that, you're a shortsighted fool. Education is just as much a matter of the public good as the criminal justice system. They are both pillars of a civilized society. Perhaps, but since the federal government's role in education is already comparatively small, it wouldn't be a big deal to eliminate it. Utter nonsense. Once again, you wield your Constitutional interpretation like a sledgehammer in an operating room - you can see the body you're supposed to work on, but you're using only a blunt instrument to do it. The 14th Amendment most certainly does not prohibit the states from having a role in education. By your silly logic, the states could do NOTHING that the federal government cannot do and so therefore would be entirely redundant. The 14th Amendment says that the states cannot deny any rights to the citizens which the federal government would be prohibited from denying under the Constitution - for example, a state cannot make a law that overturns the 5th Amendment. By your rationale, the states could not have criminal codes, since the Constitution does not grant the federal government the power to enforce criminal law except in special circumstances. Obviously, your interpretation is wildly incorrect. Go back and read the 10th Amendment, and then re-read the 14th.

I rather support a person's arguments than oppose them.

Our liberty is 100% dependent on education, so I really hate it when people argue the government shouldn't provide education.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: Our liberty is 100% dependent on education, so I really hate it when people argue the government shouldn't provide education.

Why would the government provide education on how to free yourself from it?(regarding use of force against innocent citizens, to raise revenue)

Do you think the current system in any way values liberty?

How does liberty and STATE RUN EDUCATION from funds TAKEN BY THREAT OF FORCE fit together?

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Not to some of us, their both state run educational systems, with the same values behind them.

I hardly believe this is so. However, if you want to clarify the policy of the US and of China, I will consider the facts.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Why would the government provide education on how to free yourself from it?(regarding use of force against innocent citizens, to raise revenue) Do you think the current system in any way values liberty? How does liberty and STATE RUN EDUCATION from funds TAKEN BY THREAT OF FORCE fit together?

I don't know if I even want to attempt to answer your questions, because I have made my arguments so many times. Only when democracy is defended in the classroom is it defended. People who do not understand democracy, can not manifest it. Ignorance of democracy is destroying our nation that had a culture based on democratic principles, but no longer has an understanding of those principles.

Only highly moral people can have liberty. Therefore, if a nation is going to have liberty, it must have education for that morality. Without that education, the nation is either reduced to total chaos or a police state. Personally, I prefer education for good moral judgement and liberty.

[Athena]

Thanks to this thread I discovered the International Education Foundation and an international book for moral education. The focus is on health issues because of sexually transmitted disease and therefore a need for sexual morals, and on promoting family values and citizen contribution to the greater whole.

This is the kind of thinking and effort that can unite the world, and put an end to religious wars. I like education. And think arguing a nation shouldn't provide universal education, is a failure to understand the potential value of education, and a failure to understand human potential. Uneducated people are trapped in a past that was not so pleasant. Well, educated people can manifest a New Age, far better than the past.

[Osborn F Enready]

You seem to think if there wasn't state education, there wouldn't be educated people.

You seem to think state education is the only answer, though you haven't even thought of alternatives apparently?

[grandpa]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready You seem to think if there wasn't state education, there wouldn't be educated people. You seem to think state education is the only answer, though you haven't even thought of alternatives apparently?

Properly educated people wouldn't need the coercive state for education, or for anything else.
Unfortunately, many feel we shouldn't be debating it.

Grandpa h.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready You seem to think if there wasn't state education, there wouldn't be educated people. You seem to think state education is the only answer, though you haven't even thought of alternatives apparently?

What are the conditions essential to liberty?

[Athena]

Quote by: grandpa Properly educated people wouldn't need the coercive state for education, or for anything else. Unfortunately, many feel we shouldn't be debating it. Grandpa h.

What is the debate? This thread begins with the question of why Greek methology would be considered more important than history. I said Greek mythology tells us about being human and civilized and learning what a few people did in history does not teach us much about being humans and civilized. Okay, so what is a proper education from your point of view?

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: Greek mythology tells us

Maybe the problem is we put to much faith in myths?

Conditions essential to liberty:

Individual Rights, Rule of Law, Limited Government, Free Market.

The Attack on Language: 'Rights'
Column by Stephen Browne - Sep 22, 2006
The Attack on Language: 'Rights' - Ayn Rand Admirers at The Atlasphere

". . .the source of man's rights is not divine law or congressional law, but the law of identity. A is A—and Man is Man. Rights are conditions of existence required by man's nature for his proper survival. If man is to live on earth, it is right for him to use his mind, it is right to act on his own free judgment, it is right to work for his values and to keep the product of his work. If life on earth is his purpose, he has a right to live as a rational being: nature forbids him the irrational." ["This Is John Galt Speaking," Atlas Shrugged, 976.]

"Man's rights can be violated only by the use of physical force. It is only by means of physical force that one man can deprive another of his life, or enslave him, or rob him, or prevent him from pursuing his own goals, or compel him to act against his own rational judgment." ["The Nature of Government," The Virtue of Selfishness, 126.]

"Since the protection of individual rights is the only proper purpose of a government, it is the only proper subject of legislation: all laws must be based on individual rights and aimed at their protection." ["The Nature of Government," The Virtue of Selfishness, 128.]

.

[Sweet Katie]

Quote by: Whatssnew Why would achient myths (Greek Mythology) be more important than actual history? Such as King Arthur, Queen Elizibeth, the Mongul Hord, or Alexander the Great. Are these people less important, or less interesting? There may not be a moral behind many the stories, but it is better to learn about what can, will, or has happened than tall tales about monsters, or anchient religious beliefs. If you want good moral stories, read the Bible. Such as the story about the protical son. Just because people no longer believe in the Greek gods, does not make it any less religious than the Bible. Why do teachers need to always teach the same boaring books? My theroy is that what would be best is to give the parents a say in there childrens education. People are always complaining, trying to sue schools, ex... Well you know when you go to a Presidential election they also have other laws for you to vote on at the same time? Why not have parents make decisions on what there children should be learing about in school at parent teacher meetings. For example, for the books to be read for English could be any of twenty or thirty which you want to vote for. When tallied up take five or so and allow the kids to decide wich book they want to read. You see the schools can choose a wide seletion, the parents can limit it to what they think is important, and the kids still get some choice. This way as many people as possible are happy with the choices. Also Books should not repeat in a four year period so as to keep kids from re-reading the same material again. The same idea would apply to books for American History, Math, Geology, ex... This I think would help improve the Education system, and create a fair way of choosing what is to be taught in schools. Please tell me how you feel, and if you think my system is un-fair, or will not work. Thanks for your imput.

Interesting points here, but I disagree, although respectfully so and give you kudos for the ideas.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Athena When the US built its education on the Athenian model, it was about developing well rounded individuals. It is understanding we are equal under the law, but as different as the gods. The teacher's job was to help each student discover his own interest and talents, and even the village idiot has his important place in the greater society. It resulted in a culture much kinder than our present culture. Education for technology is for a limited range of IQ and is very demoralizing to those who do not excell in this limited IQ range. Your dislike of this, is intelligent.

Once again, you need to recheck your educational history. American education was built around a Prussian model. But, they couldn't go straight to the point at which we are, teaching kids to be completely dependent on the government and supportive of the welfare-warfare state, without fomenting an all out revolution.

But, the people that founded our government education learned their principles and techniques, and even the goals of the system, in Prussia.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Winter wind These kids also seem to be the exact same ones that are picked on by the other students.

Which is the most common reason people give to oppose home-schooling, and the best reason I can come up with to support it.

The argument is that kids that are home-schooled won't be properly "socialized". However, government education's form of socialization is to teach kids to be a bully, or a victim, or a non-entity. Either you're the one picking on the other kids, or you're the one being picked on, or your someone that stays under the radar so you don't have to participate in that system.

No thank you. I would far prefer my children and grandchildren to not be socialized in such a manner.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: grandpa That being said, not all schools (whether we call them "public" or "private") are a complete failure.

Certainly one could point to case by case instances of individual schools that aren't a "complete failure". They're fairly rare, but the do exist.

The education system, as a whole, however, IS a complete failure.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Athena What are the conditions essential to liberty?

This is NOT a response to the question/comment posed.

Keith

[grandpa]

Quote by: Athena Okay, so what is a proper education from your point of view?

One that cuts away abstraction and nonsense and actually encourages learning. It should not indoctrinate people with superstitions; it should teach us how to explore for themselves. Other than that, I'm not sure what to say.

Grandpa h.

[grandpa]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger Certainly one could point to case by case instances of individual schools that aren't a "complete failure". They're fairly rare, but the do exist.

Yes, but I think there is something wrong with our culture (or the lack thereof). There are great individual writings and criticisms by many on the subject, but for me it does come down to compulsory schooling, as well as "careerism" and simply being taught nonsense.
For example, I think the grading system and other abstract models have taken on truly ridiculous proportions. It simply cheapens the whole experience, downplays the intellectual nature of learning. Nor is it particularly introspective. But, like in so many other areas, competitive attitudes and artificial barriers are being fostered where none need apply.

Grandpa h.

[mark3748]

Quote by: grandpa For example, I think the grading system and other abstract models have taken on truly ridiculous proportions. It simply cheapens the whole experience, downplays the intellectual nature of learning. Nor is it particularly introspective. But, like in so many other areas, competitive attitudes and artificial barriers are being fostered where none need apply. Grandpa h.

Robert Persig proved this point very well in a portion of his book, Zen and the Art Of Motorcycle Maintenance. The idea of education as it includes a system, grading and discipline is a mechanism for stamping down the creative genius of young minds. The idea is that without grades, children and youngsters will be free to develop a genuine interest in the subject matter. Schools teach you to imitate. If you don’t imitate what the teacher wants you get a bad grade.

[Winter wind]

You seem to think if there wasn't state education, there wouldn't be educated people. You seem to think state education is the only answer, though you haven't even thought of alternatives apparently?

Not relevant.

The major argument against leaving education to the individual people is the class difference that will emerge. The group that did poorly at school are likely to discourage their kids from school as opposed to those that did well. A vicious cycle will emerge where those who did poorly will pass on that to their children creating a huge gap between people who do well at school and those that didn't. The result will be an envious, poor, and worst of all, uneducated population.

No, education has to be a requirement. Education is the silver bullet in ridding the United States and the rest of the world, from poverty, desperation, and even crimes against humanity. I don't care if it is the government or the employees that work at Dairy Queen who mandate that everyone should be educated. All that matters is a system to educate everyone that does not look like it was put together in a log cabin.

The argument is that kids that are home-schooled won't be properly "socialized". However, government education's form of socialization is to teach kids to be a bully, or a victim, or a non-entity. Either you're the one picking on the other kids, or you're the one being picked on, or your someone that stays under the radar so you don't have to participate in that system.

Isn't this the result of a village-mentality? Keep you head down and your nose clean so you don't get exiled from the village.