Murderous justice?

[Maryjane]

Joe Horn called 911 from inside his Pasadena, Texas home. He saw two men break into his neighbor’s house. Horn told the police that he is armed with a shotgun. He told the dispatcher that he understands his rights and even makes reference to the September 1 expansion that gives Texans greater protection from prosecution should they choose to confront someone breaking into a home… Before he can be convinced otherwise, Horn tells police he sees the burglars coming out of the house. “He’s coming out of the window right now,” said Horn to the 911 dispatcher. Horn then shot both burglars (Horn admits to shooting the men out of self-defense.). Intruders Miguel DeJesus and Diego Ortiz died from their wounds. Both had criminal histories. Critics condemn Horn as a . Admirers see him as a courageous hero… Someone that you’d love to live nextdoor to. But according to his attorney, Tom Lambright, Horn is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the media that he left his home in the Houston suburb. I spoke to his lawyer this morning… LINK TO HEAR THE INTERVIEW Link to hear Joe Horn’s 911 call, (which includes the actual audio of the shooting)

760 KFMB AM - San Diego, CA - Talk Radio

(link is a conservative view)

[ruksak]

I'm weeping myself silly to think of this wrongful shooting of two f*cking scum bags.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ruksak I'm weeping myself silly to think of this wrongful shooting of two f*cking scum bags.

I'm with you on this one. Anyone comes into my house, they're responsible fro what happens. While, I might feel some remorse for being forced into such an action, the ultimate responsibility lies with those that chose to violate my home.

There was a similar incident where I live in the past week, and I fully support the person who was defending himself. My guess is, based on my reading of state and local law, the store owner will not be charged.

Keith

[ruksak]

Quote by: Keith Hamburger I'm with you on this one. Anyone comes into my house, they're responsible fro what happens. While, I might feel some remorse for being forced into such an action, the ultimate responsibility lies with those that chose to violate my home. There was a similar incident where I live in the past week, and I fully support the person who was defending himself. My guess is, based on my reading of state and local law, the store owner will not be charged. Keith

Yep. If you violate the sanctity of a mans home by breaking into it; you do so with the knowledge that someone may lose their life.

Period....

That being said, the shooter/vigilante in this case should not have done what he did. He could have been making a mistake. He could have shot an innocent bystander. And most importantly, in this society that coddles criminals, he should have known that this action could land him in prison. Being that this is Texas, he will likely be found guilty by a jury of his peers for discharging a firearm within city limits, and that is all.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ruksak That being said, the shooter/vigilante in this case should not have done what he did. He could have been making a mistake. He could have shot an innocent bystander. And most importantly, in this society that coddles criminals, he should have known that this action could land him in prison. Being that this is Texas, he will likely be found guilty by a jury of his peers for discharging a firearm within city limits, and that is all.

In Colorado, self defense is an affirmative defense against the laws prohibiting discharging a firearm within the city limits. Defending one's home is ABSOLUTELY and clearly allowed from an intruder within the home, by statute. Statute isn't as clear in regard to protecting a business, however, legal precedence pretty much settles that issue.

Keith

[Maryjane]

Thing is, it wasn't his home. He didn't know the people. The cops were on their way. He was told not to go outside the house. How do we know for sure they threatened him?

Did you listen to the audio?

[ruksak]

Quote by: Maryjane Thing is, it wasn't his home. He didn't know the people. The cops were on their way. He was told not to go outside the house. How do we know for sure they threatened him? Did you listen to the audio?

He's a f*cking moron for what he did. Don't misunderstand me on that. I just don't feel sorry for the scum bags that died.

I feel his sentence for shooting them should be as light as the law allows. Just enough to discourage others that may feel it wise to do such a thing. It really was stupid. It'd be different if they were carrying a child to their car in an abduction attempt. But the crime was done and they were just stealing "things".

I say they deserve what they got.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ruksak He's a f*cking moron for what he did. Don't misunderstand me on that. I just don't feel sorry for the scum bags that died. I feel his sentence for shooting them should be as light as the law allows. Just enough to discourage others that may feel it wise to do such a thing. It really was stupid. It'd be different if they were carrying a child to their car in an abduction attempt. But the crime was done and they were just stealing "things". I say they deserve what they got.

OK. I reread the scenario. You're absolutely right. If they weren't coming to his house, he didn't have a justification to shoot them. However, in Colorado, if he had confronted them and attempted a citizen's arrest, if they would have threatened him afterwards, thereby committing assault, he would have been fully justified.

Perhaps I should listen to the actual call. When I'm on a different computer, I might do so.

Keith

[ruksak]

Quote by: Keith Perhaps I should listen to the actual call. When I'm on a different computer, I might do so.

The guy has so many chances to think about what he's getting ready to do. He is even told repeatedly not to go outside and confront them.

Listening to it, you really get the impression that this man wants to shoot them.

[Jack]

I agree I'd like to know more about what threat he perceived. I don't believe any state punishes burglary with the death penalty, especially burglary of a residence or business not your own.

[another day]

Quote by: Maryjane Thing is, it wasn't his home. He didn't know the people. The cops were on their way. He was told not to go outside the house. How do we know for sure they threatened him? Did you listen to the audio?

Society can't rely on the police all the time. The police would have gotten there too late, and they would have got away. And the police never catch any b n e suspects once they get away.

I say, good job, those guys know what they are getting into when they break into houses...especially in texas.

Although, perhaps he should have just went outside and pointed the gun at them. I doubt they would have done anything but put their hands up. Seems like this guy was just itching to shoot a couple bad guys and be a hero.

[Maryjane]

This is what you can hear from the 911 call:

"I've got a shotgun," Horn said, according to a tape of the 911 call. "Do you want me to stop them?" "Nope, don't do that - ain't no property worth shooting somebody over, OK?" the dispatcher responded. "Hurry up man, catch these guys, will you? 'Cause I'm ain't gonna let 'em go, I'm gonna be honest with you, I'm not gonna let 'em go. I'm not gonna let 'em get away with this --." Shortly after, Horn said he sees one suspect was standing in front of his house, looking at it from the street. "I don't know if they're armed or not. I know they got a crowbar 'cause that's what they broke the windows with. ... Man, this is scary, I can't believe this is happening in this neighborhood." He gets more agitated. The dispatcher asks if he can see the suspects but they had retreated into the target's house, out of view: "I can go out the front [to look], but if I go out the front I'm bringing my shotgun with me, I swear to God. I am not gonna let 'em get away with this, I can't take a chance on getting killed over this, OK? I'm gonna shoot, I'm gonna shoot." "Stay inside the house and don't go out there, OK?" the dispatcher said. "I know you're pissed off, I know what you're feeling, but it's not worth shooting somebody over this, OK?" "I don't want to," Horn said, "but I mean if I go out there, you know, to see what the hell is going on, what choice am I gonna have? "No, I don't want you to go out there, I just asked if you could see anything out there." The dispatcher asks if a vehicle could be seen; Horn said no. The dispatcher again says Horn should stay inside the house. Almost five minutes into the call, police had not arrived. "I can't see if [the suspects are] getting away or not," Horn said. Horn told the dispatcher that he doesn't know the neighbors well, unlike those living on the other side of his home. "I can assure you if it had been their house, I would have already done something, because I know them very well," he said. Dispatcher: "I want you to listen to me carefully, OK?" Horn: "Yes?" Dispatcher: "I got ultras coming out there. I don't want you to go outside that house. And I don't want you to have that gun in your hand when those officers are poking around out there." Horn: "I understand that, OK, but I have a right to protect myself too, sir, and you understand that. And the laws have been changed in this country since September the First and you know it and I know it." Dispatcher: "I understand." Horn: "I have a right to protect myself ..." Dispatcher: "I'm ..." Horn: "And a shotgun is a legal weapon, it's not an illegal weapon." Dispatcher: "No, it's not, I'm not saying that, I'm just not wanting you to ..." Horn: "OK, he's coming out the window right now, I gotta go, buddy. I'm sorry, but he's coming out the window. " Dispatcher: "No, don't, don't go out the door, Mister Horn. Mister Horn..." Horn: "They just stole something, I'm going out to look for 'em, I'm sorry, I ain't letting them get away with this --. They stole something, they got a bag of stuff. I'm doing it!" Dispatcher: "Mister, do not go outside the house." Horn: "I'm sorry, this ain't right, buddy." Dispatcher: "You gonna get yourself shot if you go outside that house with a gun, I don't care what you think." Horn: "You wanna make a bet?" Dispatcher: "Stay in the house." Horn: "There, one of them's getting away! Dispatcher: "That's alright, property's not something worth killing someone over. OK? Don't go out the house, don't be shooting nobody. I know you're pissed and you're frustrated but don't do it." Horn: "They got a bag of loot." Dispatcher: "OK. How big is the bag?" He then talks off, relaying the information. Dispatcher: "Which way are they going?" Horn: "I can't ... I'm going outside. I'll find out." Dispatcher: "I don't want you going outside, Mister..." Horn: "Well, here it goes buddy, you hear the shotgun clicking and I'm going." Dispatcher: "Don't go outside." On the tape of the 911 call, the shotgun can be heard being cocked and Horn can be heard going outside and confronting someone. "Boom! You're dead!" he shouts. A loud bang is heard, then a shotgun being cocked and fired again, and then again. Then Horn is back on the phone: "Get the law over here quick. I've now, get, one of them's in the front yard over there, he's down, he almost run down the street. I had no choice. They came in the front yard with me, man, I had no choice! ... Get somebody over here quick, man."

This is what you don't hear...

Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, are you out there right now?" Horn: "No, I am inside the house, I went back in the house. Man, they come right in my yard, I didn't know what the -- they was gonna do, I shot 'em, OK?" Dispatcher: "Did you shoot somebody? Horn: "Yes, I did, the cops are here right now." Dispatcher: "Where are you right now?" Horn: "I'm inside the house. ..." Dispatcher: "Mister Horn, put that gun down before you shoot an officer of mine. I've got several officers out there without uniforms on." Horn: "I am in the front yard right now. I am ..." Dispatcher: "Put that gun down! There's officers out there without uniforms on. Do not shoot anybody else, do you understand me? I've got police out there..." Horn: "I understand, I understand. I am out in the front yard waving my hand right now." Dispatcher: "You don't have a gun with you, do you? Horn: "No, no, no." Dispatcher: "You see a uniformed officer? Now lay down on the ground and don't do nothing else." Yelling is heard. Dispatcher: "Lay down on the ground, Mister Horn. Do what the officers tell you to do right now."

I can understand the guy getting fed up with crime. We had a rash of car break ins in my neighborhood just last Monday. 6 of my neighbors had tires slashed and items stolen from their vehicles. It was probablly some dumb young teens. I'd hate to think anyone would kill them over a few CD's and some loose change.

How did he know they weren't friends of his neighbor who had been asked to break in? I've had to do it for someone before. The only way in was thru the window. Certain deadbolts won't open if you don't have a key. The only way back out is thru the window. I'm glad no one ever shot me.

My son stopped by one night and forgot his key. He was knocking on my back window at 1:30 AM. I'm glad my neighbor didn't think he was someone breaking in and shoot him.

All I'm saying is, you can't go around shooting people and asking questions later.

[another day]

Yeah your right. This guy pretty much just a hard on for the idea of killing a couple of bad guys.

But I like the way ruksak said it, this guy is a moron, but I don't feel sorry those two guys are dead.

[Osborn F Enready]

I in no way feel pity or remorse, nor do I think this was improper action by Mr. Horn until hearing more facts about the case.

I wish more people took defense of life, liberty and property this way.

I support Mr. Horn from what I have heard on the case so far, and commend him for taking a clear stance that criminals should avoid that neighborhood if they value their lives.

[Cephus]

I agree, while I cannot condone the action necessarily, it's about time someone stood up to the criminal element. If we had more people willing to do this, then maybe you wouldn't have so many scumbag criminals on the streets. I know that given a choice, I'd love to have someone like Horn as a neighbor because I know he's looking out for the neighborhood.

[brien]

While Horn may have had a genuine concern for his neighbor's property, he was not within his rights to act in the manner in which he did here.

What he should have done in his initial call was to tell the dispatcher he already shot the perps and the officers would have shown up a whole lot quicker. He would have been prosecuted for filing a false police report, but the perps probably would have been caught a whole lot quicker.

Long and short of it, Horn was wrong to do what he did there. I can sympathize with his frustration but he had no right or duty under the law to shoot those guys.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Isherwood I agree I'd like to know more about what threat he perceived. I don't believe any state punishes burglary with the death penalty, especially burglary of a residence or business not your own.

Wait a minute here.


Isn't "Burglary" the term ascribed to entering an occupied dwelling, and "Breaking, and Entering" the term used for entering an unoccupied building?

[Osborn F Enready]

brien said: While Horn may have had a genuine concern for his neighbor's property, he was not within his rights to act in the manner in which he did here.

Horn said they stepped on his property, and only he knew how threatening they were being.

Until I see more evidence that would make me think contrary, I find myself supporting Horn if they set one foot on his property or acted threatening.

[another day]

Quote by: Cephus I agree, while I cannot condone the action necessarily, it's about time someone stood up to the criminal element. If we had more people willing to do this, then maybe you wouldn't have so many scumbag criminals on the streets. I know that given a choice, I'd love to have someone like Horn as a neighbor because I know he's looking out for the neighborhood.

I don't think I'd want him living on my street. Did he really yell "Boom! Your dead" after he shot them? Sounds like a violent psycho to me. I don't think his actions were driven by genuine concern for his neighbors, I think they were driven by bloodlust. Sounds like an unstable guy that could easily be a violent criminal himself had life dealt him a few different cards.

And like someone else mentioned, he could have easily hurt someone innocent in the process, whether it be one of the cops, or stray bullets hitting someone else walking by, or even getting the wrong guy.

[Zeebadee]

When you decide that everyone has the right to own and use firearms to defend themselves, it's kind of hypocritical to then sit back and judge a man for using his own interpretation of what that defense entails.