Gun Saftey Training Courses Mandatory?

[Praxius]

Quote by: mark3748 but they're not constitutionally protected

Neither are Firearms.... "Arms" yes... that doesn't mean "Firearms." If you want to follow a consitution like the bible, then don't stick words where they don't exist.

And let's not forget.... for the upkeep of a militia.

I feel in order to properly interp. the US constitution, if you own/posess a firearm, then expect to be drafted when the military needs you..... oh and bring your firearm.

[Osborn F Enready]

Prax said: We all have the right for self-preservation which I supose we're all born with....

HEY! You noticed!

Prax said: but that doesn't mean firearms are manditorily required to protect this right.

Firearms are the most reasonable, most efficient and most common tool for this job, which is why we have forbidden the government to prevent or stand between individuals and their right to competent defense, via firearms.

Prax said: And if a firearm is a tool to protect this, so are nuclear arms for countries protecting their way of life against other countries.....

The right of nations to protect themselves using force against unjust force stems from the right of individuals to protect themselves, from unjust force, using force.

[Osborn F Enready]

Prax said: Neither are Firearms.... "Arms" yes... that doesn't mean "Firearms."

WHAT?!?

Prax said: If you want to follow a consitution like the bible, then don't stick words where they don't exist.

Law and religion have little if anything in common. Dont insult my nations laws by assoiciating it with religion.

Prax said: And let's not forget.... for the upkeep of a militia.

All of the people of the nation are the militia, sir, except a few who hold the position of government offices.

Prax said: I feel in order to properly interp. the US constitution, if you own/posess a firearm, then expect to be drafted when the military needs you..... oh and bring your firearm.

The military can't draft an unwilling populace, which is one reason we retain the right to bear arms.

The draft is not Constitutional.

[brien]

We all have the right for self-preservation which I supose we're all born with.... but that doesn't mean firearms are manditorily required to protect this right.

You choose your means of protection and I will mine. I won't abridge your rights and I thank you to stay off mine as guaranteed in my 2nd Amendment. It is my right to protect myself with a firearm as enumerated in the 2nd Amendment.

[brien]

Neither are Firearms.... "Arms" yes... that doesn't mean "Firearms."

It most certainly did / does in the context of the 2nd Amendment. Please don't try and reinterpret our BOR. We have enough revisionists here in the US already.

[mark3748]

Quote by: brien You choose your means of protection and I will mine. I won't abridge your rights and I thank you to stay off mine as guaranteed in my 2nd Amendment. It is my right to protect myself with a firearm as enumerated in the 2nd Amendment.

Amen.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Law and religion have little if anything in common. Dont insult my nations laws by assoiciating it with religion.

Sorry but your own nation insults itself when your presidential hopefuls encourage questions relating to their views on religion in debates and questionares, when in fact your country was one of the first to establish a seperation of church and State.

And let's not forget Bush's Holy Crusade comment.

All of the people of the nation are the militia, sir, except a few who hold the position of government offices.

That makes absolutely no sense whatsoever. The majority of your population which isn't currently in the military, have no clue of the training, proceedures and practices of a militia or any other military organization..... and brandishing a firearm doesn't make them militia material automatically.... if it does, they says something about your country's standards.

Not to mention if that was actually the case, an actually trained military would make short work of such a "militia."

The military can't draft an unwilling populace, which is one reason we retain the right to bear arms. The draft is not Constitutional.

So then don't posess firearms then. They are to substain a militia in a time when it is needed to defend the country from various aggressors..... so if you decide to own a firearm, and when the time comes to fight, you just sit back and say no, then you are in turn infringing apon what your constitution states they are for.

I never said a draft from the government, but rather from the actual militia by the people which would (Or at least should) be formed in a time of need. If the people of the country which formed the militia to take on the government or other come to you because they know you have firearms and request that you join up and you refuse then you go aginst the "Well Regulated Militia" which is a part of the 2nd amendment..... therefore you either fight, or you loose your firearm imo.

And you can't label every US citizen as being in a militia, because there has to be an identification, officers, organization, command structure, etc. in place.... if you expect every citizen to just form up with little organizational issues and no training, then you're gravely mistaken and the militia will fail.

At best, you'll create an insurgency within your own country and cause instability, but as you can see in current examples of today, if the occupying force doesn't want to leave, they won't..... until they "Win"

Don't get me wrong, it's not like I have some evil plan to make sure you guys have no firearms so that Socialist Canada invades with little effort.... I'm thinking ahead for you guys to reduce confusion when the time comes, therefore if and when something does occur.... it can be a quick mobilization, rather then people bickering back and forth about what should be done and what means what.

You may 100% be assured it means one thing, but others in the country feel it is meant as something else.... one would have thought something of this importance in a country's constitution would have been explained clearly and not be continually debated since it's creation.

[mark3748]

James Madison said it best:

The highest number to which a standing army can be carried in any country does not exceed one hundredth part of the souls, or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This portion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Besides the advantage of being armed, it forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. The governments of Europe are afraid to trust the people with arms. If they did, the people would surely shake off the yoke of tyranny, as America did. Let us not insult the free and gallant citizens of America with the suspicion that they would be less able to defend the rights of which they would be in actual possession than the debased subjects of arbitrary power would be to rescue theirs from the hands of their oppressors."- (Source I Annals of Congress 434, June 8, 1789)

I have an assignment for you, rent and watch The Patriot.It shows what a large part the militia played in the American revolutionary war.

The militia is: Militia (United States) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The reserve militia/unorganized militia All able bodied men, 17 to 45 of age, are ultimately eligible to be called up into military service and belong to the class known as the Reserve Militia, also known as the unorganized militia. Able bodied men who are not eligible for inclusion in the unorganized militia pool are those aliens not having declared their intent to become citizens of the United States (10 USC 311) and former regular component veterans of the armed forces who have reached the age of 64 (32 USC 313). All female citizens who are members of National Guard units are also included in the unorganized militia pool (10 USC 311). Other persons who are exempt from call to duty (10 USC 312) and are not therefore in the unorganized militia pool include: -The Vice President (also constitutionally the President of the Senate, that body which confirms the appointment of senior armed forces officers made by the Commander in Chief). -The judicial and executive officers of the United States, the several States and Territories, and Puerto Rico. -Members of the armed forces, except members who are not on active duty. -Customhouse clerks. -Persons employed by the United States in the transmission of mail. -Workmen employed in armories, arsenals, and naval shipyards of the United States. -Pilots on navigable waters. -Mariners in the sea service of a citizen of, or a merchant in, the United States. Many individual states have additional statutes describing their residents as part of the state militia; for example Washington law specifies all able-bodied citizens or intended citizens over the age of eighteen as members of the state militia, as explicitly distinct from the National Guard and Washington State Guard.

also exempted, should they choose to be, are 'religiously scrupulous' conscientious objectors. If there is a good reason for you not to serve in the militia, you won't be required to. If there's a good enough reason to activate the militia, I doubt there are many that would "just sit back and say no."

Praxius said: You may 100% be assured it means one thing, but others in the country feel it is meant as something else.... one would have thought something of this importance in a country's constitution would have been explained clearly and not be continually debated since it's creation

.

when the constitution was drafted, it was extremely clear. Unfortunately language changes over time, such as the meaning of militia. In another 200 years, there could be debate over your use of the word "assured" or "debated" but your intention of the words will be no different.

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: ZNFYRH mark You just opened up a simple counter to your own argument. Automobiles are a tool. They require training before licensing.

The point made by Mark, has to do with cleaining/maintaining. Everyone always talks about cleaning/maintaining being a requirement of a firearms training class.

Is it required that one be trained on cleaning/maintaining one's automobile to get a driver's license?

Hell, I'm not sure most people are able to change their own tires on the side of the road, let alone change the oil, fix the brakes, etc.

How many of you have replaced the engine or transmission in a vehicle? if you are unable to do so should you be denied your license to drive the vehicle?

I would contend (and I think Mark might as well) the vast majority of firearms owners, trained or not, are better prepared to maintain their firearms than the average car owner is prepared to maintain their car.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Praxius We can all learn how to diddle our wangs....

And, if anyone tries to restrict your right to masturbate, I will do everything I can to defend that right.

Keith

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Praxius I feel in order to properly interp. the US constitution, if you own/posess a firearm, then expect to be drafted when the military needs you..... oh and bring your firearm.

I won't need to be drafted, I will show up at the front lines, with my firearm(s) and adequate ammunition for the first engagement, without such being demanded, if my country were to be invaded.

Even though, within 10 months I will no longer officially be part of the militia, given my age. Even 20 years from now, I expect I will be at those front lines.

I will also bring a vehicle capable of supporting myself and a platoon's worth of equipment.

But, of course, you can claim your superiority or ignorance of what "draft" and "militia" means.

Keith

(btw ... I'm confident that Mark and Osborne will be there as well)

[Keith Hamburger]

Quote by: Praxius Not to mention if that was actually the case, an actually trained military would make short work of such a "militia."

As, of course, the "actually trained military" of the US has made such short work of the Afghani and Iraqi insurgency.

Keith