Could "Civilized" eventually = Extinction?

[Ken Carman]

From this week's Inspection...
:

Query: could our rather odd concepts regarding what is "civilized" lead to our own extinction?

The quote that inspired the column (thanks, M...)

"That's the interesting thing about humans. We don't use 'our' intelligence to survive. We survive because there were, and are, exemplary instances of human ingenuity that we have drawn upon, and built upon, over time." "The average human today is the equivalent of a cow. We are completely domesticated. We lack all natural instincts. And most of us would die of starvation or exposure if we were left to our own devices in a truly 'natural' environment." "We mirror the genetic abominations we ourselves have designed. We created turkeys with breasts so plump they are incapable of procreation without our assistance. Purebred British Bulldogs are likely to die when giving birth by means other than cesarean section." "I would argue that most humans are fully domesticated, genetically engineered, animals. There still are rare instances of true human animals in the world but we should have them weeded out completely in the next couple hundred years." -Muckraker

Once again...

Query: could our rather odd concepts regarding what is "civilized" lead to our own extinction?

Below you will find at least two links to the full column if you wish to read the full version before, during, or after discussing this premise.

[Alive]

Too civilized? Haha...do you think you're in Victorian England? We live in a society that glorifies potty humor. Watch a comedy movie lately? Watch television ever? Listen to rap lately? Rich people party the same way poor people do these days...they don't obsess about using some odd number of spoons, they get drunk and play stupid games. Middle class culture has taken over both poor and rich culture; from television, we have created monoculture, and it's anything but civilized.

Talking on the cell phone isn't "civilized" in the sense that using the correct spoon is civilized. Just the opposite. Talking on a cell phone in the presence of other people is rude, even uncouth. The idea of manners has fallen out of style lately--not necessarily a bad thing, but I have no idea where you get your perceptions from. Maybe you have bad memories from childhood, but today, culture is as far from its chivalrous past as it has ever been.

Did Bush get elected by appealing to his patrician roots? No, he got elected by pretending to be a cowboy! Listen to right wing attack radio, or read right wing sites. They are not "civilized", they attack the left (including Al Gore) for being "limousine liberals" and "elitists."

Maybe you're making a more subtle point that I'm just not getting. The point I thought you were going to make when I saw the title was that civilization in the sense of cities and states and large economies and standing armies could make us extinct. If you had made that point, I would agree--civilization could very well kill us all.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Ken are you proposing that the human races likely extinction will be because of loss of our natural senses and dependancy on technology, which we've happily enjoyed since the victorians

The answer will depend upon what natural or human induced world scale disaster, will the average city dweller survive with no water, no power and no food?

oh dear just us hill folks eeeking away in our old fashioned earthy ways

[grandpa]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Ken are you proposing that the human races likely extinction will be because of loss of our natural senses and dependancy on technology, which we've happily enjoyed since the victorians

Mind you, our humanity and natural senses have never been totally lost, but there seems to be encouragement in that direction.

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel The answer will depend upon what natural or human induced world scale disaster, will the average city dweller survive with no water, no power and no food?

Most people will do anything to keep water and food. I'm not sure if electricity has made it yet into that category. That's of course not to say people would want to live without power production facilities.

It's an interesting topic, and I've read some work by "primitivist" writers, so i knoww some of these arguments, and they're not as crazy as they're made out to be. In fact, we'll probably have to go in a more "primitive" direction some day.

Grandpa h.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Alive Too civilized? Haha...do you think you're in Victorian England? We live in a society that glorifies potty humor. Watch a comedy movie lately? Watch television ever? Listen to rap lately? Rich people party the same way poor people do these days...they don't obsess about using some odd number of spoons, they get drunk and play stupid games. Middle class culture has taken over both poor and rich culture; from television, we have created monoculture, and it's anything but civilized. Talking on the cell phone isn't "civilized" in the sense that using the correct spoon is civilized. Just the opposite. Talking on a cell phone in the presence of other people is rude, even uncouth. The idea of manners has fallen out of style lately--not necessarily a bad thing, but I have no idea where you get your perceptions from. Maybe you have bad memories from childhood, but today, culture is as far from its chivalrous past as it has ever been. Did Bush get elected by appealing to his patrician roots? No, he got elected by pretending to be a cowboy! Listen to right wing attack radio, or read right wing sites. They are not "civilized", they attack the left (including Al Gore) for being "limousine liberals" and "elitists." Maybe you're making a more subtle point that I'm just not getting. The point I thought you were going to make when I saw the title was that civilization in the sense of cities and states and large economies and standing armies could make us extinct. If you had made that point, I would agree--civilization could very well kill us all.

It's not a matter of "too civilized." It's a matter of what some consider to be "civilized."

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Arawn-ap-Hywel Ken are you proposing that the human races likely extinction will be because of loss of our natural senses and dependancy on technology, which we've happily enjoyed since the victorians The answer will depend upon what natural or human induced world scale disaster, will the average city dweller survive with no water, no power and no food? oh dear just us hill folks eeeking away in our old fashioned earthy ways

Grandpa is pretty much on target. You're pretty close too, though I would say it's as much how we use tech as it is rely on it... maybe more. But to refer more directly to one point you brought up, I know my father spoke of how many died during the great Depression by their own hand due to their inability to adjust to the new dynamic. So I'm sure no power, no easy access to food, contaminated water... that type of almost Mad Max environment would kill millions of human fish once the "more (?)civilized" pool is drained.

[Alive]

Quote by: Ken Carman It's not a matter of "too civilized." It's a matter of what some consider to be "civilized."

What do you mean? Explain. As I pointed out in my post, Americans are more favorable towards middle class culture than ever. So I don't understand how the examples you listed in your blog are at all relevant.

[Ken Carman]

Quote by: Alive What do you mean? Explain. As I pointed out in my post, Americans are more favorable towards middle class culture than ever. So I don't understand how the examples you listed in your blog are at all relevant.

What you, or I, consider "civilized" is not the point. In this culture if you're not up on the latest tech, or interested in discussing the latest program, or fascinated by thing high society might be fascinated in, then that could be considered "uncivilized" by some.

I never said, or intended to say, anything specific about "the middle class." It's really about what we consider important in some ways.

Then we have certain "needs:" electricity, TV, food cooked in a certain manner or eaten in a proper way. None of these are necessary. Running water is, but that's "provided." What if it was shut down? What if we had to find, or purify, our own?

We have come to expect certain things, methods and ways of running our lives that really have nothing to do with the world around us. Fishing, trapping, hunting for food, at best, is done for pleasure. The bear at our doors is an infrequent experience. I grew up with it being quite the possiblity. In fact you should see what a bear does to the inside of a house. I've had to clean up more than a few.

Here are two very short stories that might give you more of a sense of what I am referring to..

My uncle was a cop in this wilderness area I speak of. In the 60s he used to chase people away from the dumps who would bother the bears so they could get pictures. When a bear ignored a mother's daughter: who had just offered the beast flowers at a dump, he saw the mother run up and yell, "How dare you ignore my daughter," and slapped the bear. Luckily, the bear had a good day and stalked away.

My wife and I were on a dock in Florida a few years ago and a little boy was chasing a pelican. I suggested to the mother that she probably shouldn't let her son do that because (after she asked "why") "pelicans are wild creatures: unpredictable. She said, "If they weren't tame the state of Florida wouldn't allow them to be there."

I have customers in Mississippi who were hit during Katrina. They had to find water, live without electricity and many other hardships. Humans seems to vary wildly from helpful to outright vultures.

Yet I argued just a couple of weeks ago with someone at Volconvo about how, the poster felt, we have mastered the weather and know exactly what's going to happen. That's simply not true.

We seem to believe, while wallowing in all we might consider a necessary part of civilization.... in our cozy homes; apartments and controlled environments, that we are safe and the most important things can vary from using the proper fork to who won the World Series, or who was humiliated last night on American Idol.

We're not.