How Capitalism is Killing Democracy:

[Praxius]

Free markets were supposed to lead to free societies. Instead, today's supercharged global economy is eroding the power of the people in democracies around the globe. Welcome to a world where government takes a back seat to big business. Conventional wisdom holds that where either capitalism or democracy flourishes, the other must soon follow. Yet today, their fortunes are beginning to diverge. Capitalism is thriving, while democracy is struggling to keep up. China has embraced market freedom, but not political freedom. Many economically successful nations-from Russia to Mexico-are democracies in name only. They are encumbered by the same problems that have hobbled American democracy in recent years, allowing corporations and elites to undermine the government's capacity to respond to citizens' concerns...... ......This fact is not, however, a failing of capitalism. Capitalism's role is to increase the economic pie, nothing more. Democracy, at its best, enables citizens to debate collectively how the slices of the pie should be divided and to determine which rules apply to private goods and which to public goods. Today, those tasks are increasingly being left to the market. What is desperately needed is a clear delineation of the boundary between global capitalism and democracy-between the economic game, on the one hand, and how its rules are set, on the other. If the purpose of capitalism is to allow corporations to play the market as aggressively as possible, the challenge for citizens is to stop these economic entities from being the authors of the rules by which we live...... ......Why has capitalism succeeded while democracy has steadily weakened? Democracy has become enfeebled largely because companies, in intensifying competition for global consumers and investors, have invested ever greater sums in lobbying, public relations, and even bribes and kickbacks, seeking laws that give them a competitive advantage over their rivals. The result is an arms race for political influence that is drowning out the voices of average citizens. The only way for the citizens in us to trump the consumers in us is through laws and rules that make our purchases and investments social choices as well as personal ones........ .....or those of us living in democracies, it is imperative to remember that we are also citizens who have it in our power to reduce these social costs, making the true price of the goods and services we purchase as low as possible. We can accomplish this larger feat only if we take our roles as citizens seriously. The first step, which is often the hardest, is to get our thinking straight.

Economic Dreams - Economic Nightmares: How Capitalism is Killing Democracy

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.....We live in a world being pillaged by the institutions of global capitalism to enrich the few at the expense of the many. It has become more than just a political issue. We have reached the point in human history at which the very survival of civilization and perhaps our species depends on replacing these rogue institutions with institutions supportive of democracy, market economies, and ethical cultures that function in service to life and community. Yes, your heard me right. We must replace the global capitalist economy with democracies and market economies. Now how's that for a radical idea? For those of us who grew up believing that capitalism is the foundation of democracy, market freedom, and the good life it has been a rude awakening to realize that under capitalism, democracy is for sale to the highest bidder, the market is centrally planned by global mega-corporations larger than most countries, the elimination of jobs and livelihoods is rewarded as an economic virtue, and the destruction of nature and life to make money for the already rich is viewed as progress. Let us speak truth tonight. Global capitalism is not democratic and it systematically violates every principle of a market economy. Under global capitalism the world is ruled by a global financial casino staffed by faceless bankers, money managers, and hedge fund speculators who operate with a herd mentality that sends exchange rates and stock prices into wild gyrations unrelated to any underlying economic reality. With reckless abandon they make and break national economies, buy and sell corporations, and hire and fire corporate CEOs--holding the most powerful politicians and corporate managers hostage to their interests. When their bets pay off they claim the winnings as their own. When they lose, they run to governments and public institutions to make up their losses with cries that the financial skies will fall if they are forced to suffer the market's discipline. Contrary to its claims, capitalism's relationship to democracy and the market economy is much the same as the relationship of a cancer to the body whose life energies it expropriates. Cancer is a pathology that occurs when an otherwise healthy cell forgets that it is a part of the body and begins to pursue its own unlimited growth without regard to the consequences for the whole. The growth of the cancerous cells deprives the healthy cells of nourishment and ultimately kills both the body and itself. Capitalism does much the same to the societies it infests. Another way of characterizing our situation is that we find ourselves unwitting participants in an epic contest between money and life for the soul of humanity. And it comes down to a fairly literal choice as to which we value more--our money or our lives. The cultural and institutional choices we must now make in the favor of life will require changes of a scope and speed unprecedented in human history. Fortunately, we find ourselves facing this challenge at the very moment in our history at which we have acquired the knowledge, the technology, and the organizational capacity to negotiate the required changes successfully. The main question to be resolved is whether we will find the collective wisdom and the will to act in time. It is a question that must be resolved individual by individual, community by community, and nation by nation. In some places, citizen movements are already engaging it on a national scale--as in the Philippines, Chile, and Thailand. Just last month I had the privilege of participating in new initiatives emerging in Hungary, Finland, and Norway. But to my knowledge there is no country in the world in which the process has gained so much momentum as here in Canada in a wide range of initiatives such as alternative budgeting exercises, the Citizen's Agenda and MAI inquiry processes being led by the Council of Canadians, and initiatives of many groups such as the Parkland Institute and the Western Affairs Committee. This momentum gives you a special opportunity for global leadership. It also means you face the special challenge always presented to those who choose to sail in uncharted waters. You have no map and I have no map to offer, but I do hope to leave you with a few useful navigational devices......

http://www.pcdf.org/1998/capitalism.htm

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Does anybody agree with the above statements? Do you feel that Capitalism is what keeps Democracy going, or is it what they say above as it being a cancer to society and freedoms?

I personally have always felt that Currency and Capitalism will eventually fail given time, as we have seen things in just the last century + double and sometimes triple in costs.... inflation is a constant..... things that cost you a nickle back in the 30's now can run around $15... and it just keeps going up and up.

A can of pop in a machine when I was a kid was two quarters.... not it's either $1.50 or even 2 bucks depending.... and that was just in 20 years. Currency and Capitalism are heading to a brick wall and has been for a long time now.... they just keep slowing down the process by increasing taxes, prices, inflation.

As an example, here the minimum wage will increase about 30 cents a year.... yet living costs are increased even further then that..... we complain the minimum wage is not high enough for most to get out of the hole, so they raise it again.... then they have to raise taxes on products you buy in order to get this money for minimum wage.... then your rent or housing costs go up..... then you complain some more.... minimum wage goes up.... then everything else goes up.

If you look at the big picture, the cost of living is going up, while we are continually getting paid less and less to compensate.

Now besides that, there is also the well know money support poloticians get form many corps so they can get power, and at the same time, these companies get deals in return.... all at the same time undermining the individual citizens right to choose.

So what's the solution?

[Nemiroff]

100% agree with the first part. I used to think that government is evil and greedy, but it seems more like the corporations are throwing billions of dollars of temptation into the laps of the politicians, who aren't saints to begin with.

After a certain point I just stopped reading, way too long to be reading on a cell phone :)

[Praxius]

I imagine so.... both links are two different approaches to the problem.

[HelioPrime]

The solution could be something along the lines of limiting spending on wars and wasteful laws and structure, devote it back into the economic system and peoples community, including education, and stop the flow of illegal immigration.

If we cut the flow of people without education and help educate the people we have they make more money and so naturally rising costs don't affect them as much.

[grandpa]

Quote by: HelioPrime The solution could be something along the lines of limiting spending on wars and wasteful laws and structure, devote it back into the economic system and peoples community, including education, and stop the flow of illegal immigration. If we cut the flow of people without education and help educate the people we have they make more money and so naturally rising costs don't affect them as much.

I noticed you slipped "illegal immigrants" in there. It is relevant, sure. But another thing killing democracy is this "Hire a wetback; go to jail!" mentality. Predictably, you ignore how the global economy has caused the problems in Mexico, AKA the flood of wicked "illegals."

Noam Chomsky addressed this issue very well:
YouTube - Discussion on Globalization

If we keep reaching out and finger-pointing (especially at some of the biggest victims of our corporate economy), that's not particularly democratic. It's also not democratic to round people up and deport them. In fact, that's the opposite of democracy. So commonly people regard "democracy" as a free license for coercion and systematic inequality, but that's NOT real democracy.

Grandpa h.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax Now besides that, there is also the well know money support poloticians get form many corps so they can get power, and at the same time, these companies get deals in return.... all at the same time undermining the individual citizens right to choose.

That's not capitalism. The government does not involve itself in a capitalist economy. What you posted is an argument against the current system, but not against capitalism.

[Praxius]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy That's not capitalism. The government does not involve itself in a capitalist economy. What you posted is an argument against the current system, but not against capitalism.

The current system is directly involved in the capitalist economy and to deny this is kinda silly as there is proof everywhere.

The current system is the end result of Capitalism as the above examples show. I see it as an effect which can take hold of any country which believes in both Democracy and Capitalism at the same time.

I'm not a big fan of currency and capitalism as you may have guessed, but I can still suck it up and live through this culture. In order to solve these issues of what effects Capitalism have on our countries, the governments require to be much more transparent then what they are now.... esspecially when it comes to campaign donations.

In the last 10 years or so, Canada has put into place many regulations and donation caps on politicians so there is a bit more control over the government by the people rather then the corps.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax The current system is the end result of Capitalism as the above examples show.

It may or may not have been preceded by capitalism, but that doesn't mean it's a necessary result of it.

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius If you look at the big picture, the cost of living is going up, while we are continually getting paid less and less to compensate.

The way I see it, in a free society, such as the US, if you don't want to be paid minimum wage you have every right to work harder, get an education, and get a job that pays more than minimum wage. The big picture is that we have LOTS of lazy people who aren't motivated to do anything OTHER than work at a minimum wage job because the government will give them a hand out. We should be cutting off ther hand outs and figureing out ways of motivating people to get better jobs if they don't like minimum wage.

[Osborn F Enready]

Bacon said: It may or may not have been preceded by capitalism, but that doesn't mean it's a necessary result of it.

Well said, and thank you for pointing that out.

I am so tired of explaining the obvious.

[Praxius]

Never said it was a "necessary result" of capitalism.. I said in the quote used, that the current system is a result of this.

I already aknowleged that this isn't the case in every situation in democracy and capitalism... but it's a big problem none the less when capitalism interfeers with how the government works for the people such as it is now.

I said the current government is the end result of capitalism's affect, which I personally feel will eventually fail as a working system overall, much like currency. But my views of Currency and Capitalism alone are not the same as my views of Capitalism's current interaction with the democratic process.

You can state the obvious all you want, but if it doesn't relate to what I said, then what's the point?

I didn't say I completely agree with the two articles presented, but they do raise good points on how capitalism can and does affect democracy.

I do believe that Bush and others in power have had their views or decisions that suited the public altered due to money given to them by big corps. This is well known.

My question was that if this is indeed happening, which it is, and most see this happening.... what is the solution?

I have not yet suggested in this thread that Capitalism should be completely removed at this stage.... but it drastically needs improvement to the point where it is seperated from the government in some manner.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Dieval The way I see it, in a free society, such as the US, if you don't want to be paid minimum wage you have every right to work harder, get an education, and get a job that pays more than minimum wage. The big picture is that we have LOTS of lazy people who aren't motivated to do anything OTHER than work at a minimum wage job because the government will give them a hand out. We should be cutting off ther hand outs and figureing out ways of motivating people to get better jobs if they don't like minimum wage.

I agree there are a lot of lazy people out there.... but if they are working, they are working and still contributing to society.

My issue with minimum wage is it's supposed to be a good start for those just getting into the work field with little experience, such as high school students or those just getting out on their own..... but it's usually not enough to get people started, due to the common costs of living which are higher. The minimum wage goes up a few cents and the overall cost of living goes up a few bucks.... there isn't a decent balance.

So then you decide to get some education to get a better job, to get better paid..... but you need money for that as well.... so trying to live off of minimum wage and then also trying to save up for post secondary education is an impossibility.

Then you decide to get raises from work experience instead.... sure.... but nobody will hire you if you have no experience..... and in order to get experience, you need to work.... even when I came out of three different college course, it was still the same.... "No Experience, No Job"

I had enough education up the wazoo to be started off at a decent pay.... but that wasn't the case, nor is it for most others in this position.

Due to my education however, when I finally got into my selected indurstry, I was started off a a buck more then minimum wage..... whoopie.... meanwhile I'm still 60 grand in the hole.

My above statement wasn't in regards to the slackers.... but towards those who fight tooth and nail to get ahead and can't.

I'm finally at a decent position in my life, with a semi-decent pay.... but it shouldn't have been as screwed up as it was to get here.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax Never said it was a "necessary result" of capitalism.. I said in the quote used, that the current system is a result of this.

Then the it's not capitalism which it to blame for the result; it's the way in which the United States has dealt with and ultimately corrupted capitalism. These corruptions occuring with governments and corporations are a result of the people a) Allowing companies to grow too large and powerful by refusing to exercise their consumer power, and b) Electing governments which allow themselves to be corrupted. It's not capitalism to blame for this mess; it's the people themselves, and their inability to make responsible decisions.

[Praxius]

fair enough.... and makes sense to a degree.

So what would be the detailed solutions to this problem?

[Dieval]

Quote by: Praxius I agree there are a lot of lazy people out there.... but if they are working, they are working and still contributing to society. My issue with minimum wage is it's supposed to be a good start for those just getting into the work field with little experience, such as high school students or those just getting out on their own..... but it's usually not enough to get people started, due to the common costs of living which are higher. The minimum wage goes up a few cents and the overall cost of living goes up a few bucks.... there isn't a decent balance. So then you decide to get some education to get a better job, to get better paid..... but you need money for that as well.... so trying to live off of minimum wage and then also trying to save up for post secondary education is an impossibility. Then you decide to get raises from work experience instead.... sure.... but nobody will hire you if you have no experience..... and in order to get experience, you need to work.... even when I came out of three different college course, it was still the same.... "No Experience, No Job" I had enough education up the wazoo to be started off at a decent pay.... but that wasn't the case, nor is it for most others in this position. Due to my education however, when I finally got into my selected indurstry, I was started off a a buck more then minimum wage..... whoopie.... meanwhile I'm still 60 grand in the hole. My above statement wasn't in regards to the slackers.... but towards those who fight tooth and nail to get ahead and can't. I'm finally at a decent position in my life, with a semi-decent pay.... but it shouldn't have been as screwed up as it was to get here.

I worked at a minimum wage job for FAR longer than I care to admit to. Then, when I got tired of making no money and not being able to afford to live....guess what I did? I got a loan and went to school. Still paying on that loan BTW, but I make FAR FAR more money now than I did before. If I can do it, anyone can do it.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Prax So what would be the detailed solutions to this problem?

Uh...I hadn't really thought that far ahead. I'm no economist, so I don't know what the solution would be; I just felt the need to defend capitalism.

Now I'm in over my head. I want out!

[Objectivist]

Quote by: Praxius So what's the solution?

The solution is not more controls, more government-less big business...

The solution is a system where businesses cannot use politicians to gain favors or use the government as a club. A system where business cannot force people to support them (subsidization). A system where economics are freed from government, for the same reason and purpose as the separation of religion and state.

The government would not be able to restrict or regulate. But the businesses would not be able to use the government as a tool against citizens.

People would not be forced to support businesses. Either they buy the product or they do not.

Monopolies would not form. Political freedom would be assured...

[Praxius]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Uh...I hadn't really thought that far ahead. I'm no economist, so I don't know what the solution would be; I just felt the need to defend capitalism. Now I'm in over my head. I want out!

Ha ha... see that's all I wanted out of the debate, the solution that most Americans would feel comfortible with.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Objectivist The solution is not more controls, more government-less big business... The solution is a system where businesses cannot use politicians to gain favors or use the government as a club. A system where business cannot force people to support them (subsidization). A system where economics are freed from government, for the same reason and purpose as the separation of religion and state. The government would not be able to restrict or regulate. But the businesses would not be able to use the government as a tool against citizens. People would not be forced to support businesses. Either they buy the product or they do not. Monopolies would not form. Political freedom would be assured...

Makes sense I believe from your guy's perspective.

Now the second part.. how do you apply this into your current government, and how do you have assurance the processes are going through without any unknown influence or interuptions to disrupt it?

We all know these guys like their money.... I imagine they would try and find some legal loop holes or other means to distabalize anything that gave back power to the people and not them.

Once this part is figured out, then the rest is pretty easy to apply into action.

[Objectivist]

Quote by: Praxius Makes sense I believe from your guy's perspective. Now the second part.. how do you apply this into your current government, and how do you have assurance the processes are going through without any unknown influence or interuptions to disrupt it? We all know these guys like their money.... I imagine they would try and find some legal loop holes or other means to distabalize anything that gave back power to the people and not them. Once this part is figured out, then the rest is pretty easy to apply into action.

It's a very lengthy process.

You would have to roll back government control in all aspects of life. In order to fully separate economics from government, would take very lengthy amount of time.

The ultimate decision maker though, is a culture's philosophy. If people believe that government should be used as a tool, a club, or an important figure in their daily life, then such a system would never work. People must believe and understand and know the philosophy behind laissez-faire capitalism. They must understand the ethical system, the reasoning, and the view of the world that it requires. They must have a philosophy that upholds such a system. The current philosophy of America (and of the world) forbids such a system. However, minorities have the ability to make up the majority and people can be persuaded and can be taught.