Grand Theft Auto.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire But why is that a problem? "It just is" isn't an answer. There must be some negative effects from it in order to be a problem, and so far no one has mentioned any (other than what Ruksak said about the disturbed, which I addressed). If you can give me some reasonable negative effects that can come from a young child playing GTA then I'll probably agree with you. But right now I can't think of any.

I'm no child development scientist but there are phases in the intellectual development of children. Undoing undesireable input that was received during some of these phases can take a lifetime. These developmental phases are exactly why "brainwashing" is so effective on children. Also, have you ever noticed how kids sometimes emulate their parents or older siblings, even if the behavior is inappropriate for them?

This is just the result of a quick Google dip so I can't say whether it is 100% accurate but here is a page regarding childhood development: Funderstanding - Piaget

I think most people who say "this isn't for kids" wouldn't be against a parent walking a child through all the intricacies of adult material if they are accidentally exposed to it. In most cases where kids have material that is not age appropriate, however, it is due to negligent parenting and the child is left to fend for themselves on figuring out what it all means.

Remember in grade school when some kids had the scientifically accurate "talk" with their parents, other kids had the euphamistic "talk," and some kids were left to figure it out themselves? Ever wonder why some 16 year olds thought they could get pregnant by kissing and some 45 year olds feel "guilty" or "dirty" about sexual desire? That's what happens when kids are given information, accurate or not, and left completely to their own devices to make sense of it.

The problem with a 7 year old determining if they want to just have sex with the prostitute or have sex with her and then beat her to get their money back is that the 7 year old may still believe in Santa, is learning to read, can't do basic math, and is developmentally incapable of abstract thought.

Anyone who sees a 7 year old with a controller in his/her hand and GTA3 on the screen should be looking around for a parent and preparing to unleash holy verbal hell on them. Allowing a 7 year old to make sense of GTA3 is just as parentally irresponsible as letting them stand at the foot of the bed and try to make sense of you doing the wife doggy style with a rowdy cheek slap here and there for variety.

To summarize: It's not right because kids are not at a stage in their intellectual development where that sort of input can be processed and filed properly in their brains.

[ruksak]

Quote by: prejudged fire But even if the mentally disturbed children never played the game, they'd still see its content on TV, the news, school, magazines, etc. It'd be impossible to shelter them from it entirely.

Firstly, you're correct in that you cannot shield your child from negative media. Whether they are mentally deficient or not. They may not play GTA in your house, but I bet your ass they will at their friends house.

Allow me to explain this from my own parenting experience. My daughter is now 8 years old. When she was 4-5 years old she loved Britney Spears. She would listen to her all the time and boogie woogie like a pro in her little PJ's all night. She'd put on little outfits and pretend she was Britney. It was cute. The music was harmless teenie booper fun. Than Ms. Spears came out with her next album, and being a responsible parent I checked it out first. "Sex this, drinking that, sex some more, sex sex sex". WHOA! Nope, not for my 6 year old. I had to explain to her why Britney Spears wasn't appropriate for her, and surprisingly she agreed.

She also now loves to play video games, and naturally wanted to play my GTA. Nope, not for my 8 year old.

But why?

Quote by: prejudged fire If you can give me some reasonable negative effects that can come from a young child playing GTA then I'll probably agree with you. But right now I can't think of any

This is just one mans opinion. NO! You can't stop your child from exposure to violent or sexual media. The most overt damage that can occur from allowing your child to take part in adult rated material is the simple fact that they know you approve of it. Your child may view porn at a young age, I did. I snuck into the old mans chest'o'draws and peeked Hustler magazine when I was 10. But if he had brought that magazine out and plopped the spread eagle layouts right in front of me and said "check out that p@#%y". I would have likely developed mentally, and sexually, in a different manner.

Same for extremely edgy video games or music. Your kids will hear it. It most often won't cause them direct harm. But when they know you approve of it, and I mean you approve of them consuming this stuff, its harmful. If I hear her saying "Fu@#ing Nig@*%s die". Not only did she learn that from GTA, she learned that I'm OK with her learning that from GTA.

Am I making sense?

[prejudged_Fire]

The best argument I've seen so far, ruksak... nice job.

Now you're starting to win me over (but not completely).

[ruksak]

Quote by: prejudged_Fire The best argument I've seen so far, ruksak... nice job. Now you're starting to win me over (but not completely).

Why thank you. But realize that I also agree with some of what your saying. I think theres an extenuating component to the issue of when a child can be harmed from such materials. That component being complete social and parental disconnection. When a child doesn't have a parent there at all to provide an understanding of adult material. Or when a child has no friends or social interaction, the game/music/movies may attempt to answer these questions that they cannot receive feedback on. No context is available to them, thus they might place this information in their undeveloped minds in an improper manner.

In other words I don't see it as the game itself being damaging, but rather the absence of context.
Your child's intelligence has to fit in their somewhere as well. All this speech about child psychology and a child's inability to properly digest violent media can be deceiving. Lamens terms; if your child is stupid they can't understand its wrong to kill a hooker with a chainsaw. I know child psychologist would turn redfaced at the assertion a violent video game could be harmful if a child is stupid. They are often in the business of making excuses for children. Lets face it, some kids are just stupid.

If I over heard my daughter talking on the phone about having played GTA, I wouldn't become outraged and worried that my child has been exposed to this, now shes doomed and/or needs therapy. Thats nonsense. To listen to some of these people talk you'd think they assume if their child played GTA, they would soon be jacking cars and shooting up the town. Stupid kids might do this. I guess I'd worry about it more if my daughter was dumb.

[prejudged_Fire]

Why thank you.

You're welcome. I'll always admit it if someone proves me wrong.

I think theres an extenuating component to the issue of when a child can be harmed from such materials. That component being complete social and parental disconnection. When a child doesn't have a parent there at all to provide an understanding of adult material. Or when a child has no friends or social interaction, the game/music/movies may attempt to answer these questions that they cannot receive feedback on. No context is available to them, thus they might place this information in their undeveloped minds in an improper manner.

Agreed. That was kinda what I was saying throughout the whole thing. If a parent isn't there to help digest the information being received and all the kid does is play the game all the time, then thats all he knows and the line between reality and virtuality (if thats even a word) has been blurred. But as long as that line is clear to them, with the help of their parents, there shouldn't be any major problems.

To listen to some of these people talk you'd think they assume if their child played GTA, they would soon be jacking cars and shooting up the town. Stupid kids might do this.

Well, I think it might take a bit more than stupidity, but I see your point.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Muckraker; I'm no child development scientist but there are phases in the intellectual development of children. Undoing undesireable input that was received during some of these phases can take a lifetime. These developmental phases are exactly why "brainwashing" is so effective on children. Also, have you ever noticed how kids sometimes emulate their parents or older siblings, even if the behavior is inappropriate for them? This is just the result of a quick Google dip so I can't say whether it is 100% accurate but here is a page regarding childhood development: Funderstanding - Piaget I think most people who say "this isn't for kids" wouldn't be against a parent walking a child through all the intricacies of adult material if they are accidentally exposed to it. In most cases where kids have material that is not age appropriate, however, it is due to negligent parenting and the child is left to fend for themselves on figuring out what it all means. Remember in grade school when some kids had the scientifically accurate "talk" with their parents, other kids had the euphamistic "talk," and some kids were left to figure it out themselves? Ever wonder why some 16 year olds thought they could get pregnant by kissing and some 45 year olds feel "guilty" or "dirty" about sexual desire? That's what happens when kids are given information, accurate or not, and left completely to their own devices to make sense of it. The problem with a 7 year old determining if they want to just have sex with the prostitute or have sex with her and then beat her to get their money back is that the 7 year old may still believe in Santa, is learning to read, can't do basic math, and is developmentally incapable of abstract thought. Anyone who sees a 7 year old with a controller in his/her hand and GTA3 on the screen should be looking around for a parent and preparing to unleash holy verbal hell on them. Allowing a 7 year old to make sense of GTA3 is just as parentally irresponsible as letting them stand at the foot of the bed and try to make sense of you doing the wife doggy style with a rowdy cheek slap here and there for variety. To summarize: It's not right because kids are not at a stage in their intellectual development where that sort of input can be processed and filed properly in their brains.

Pa-Lease....

And what happens to your child if they are thrown into an adult situation where they have no choice but to make the decisions themselves?

Case in point.... myself.

My house burned down around me at the age of 9.... quite a serious thing, as I was also alone at the time. I had nobody there to tell me what I needed to do, only my own wits and what I was taught to do previously by my parents.

Over half the house was destroyed, the majority of our pets died in the fire, but I escaped on my own, about 3-5 mins prior to the fire department arriving.

Now if my parents decided to shelter my life from serious issues in the world, or the sort, chances are, I'd be dead.

But unfortunatly for you guys, I'm not that stupid, and I made my way out of the house. Now you got all the time in the world to hear me rant and rave about anything under the sun.

If I wasn't taught what to do, and taught the consiquences of actions in the "Real World" then chances are, I would have hid in a closet in the house and either waited for the fire to come to me, or die from smoke inhilation.

It all boils down to how you raise your children. If you treat them like monkeys, expect their crap flung at you. If they end up having to deal with a situation where you the parent(s) are not around to make the "adult" decisions, what then?

[ZNFYRH]

Knowing what to do in case of a fire is not even close to knowing the morality and ethics behind killing, drugs, and prostitution.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Praxius My house burned down around me at the age of 9.... quite a serious thing, as I was also alone at the time. I had nobody there to tell me what I needed to do, only my own wits and what I was taught to do previously by my parents. Over half the house was destroyed, the majority of our pets died in the fire, but I escaped on my own, about 3-5 mins prior to the fire department arriving. Now if my parents decided to shelter my life from serious issues in the world, or the sort, chances are, I'd be dead. But unfortunatly for you guys, I'm not that stupid, and I made my way out of the house. Now you got all the time in the world to hear me rant and rave about anything under the sun. If I wasn't taught what to do, and taught the consiquences of actions in the "Real World" then chances are, I would have hid in a closet in the house and either waited for the fire to come to me, or die from smoke inhilation. It all boils down to how you raise your children. If you treat them like monkeys, expect their crap flung at you. If they end up having to deal with a situation where you the parent(s) are not around to make the "adult" decisions, what then?

........and how would you have benefited from experience playing GTA in this scenario? Would you have cursed the flames out? Perhaps you would have made your escape by throwing a dead hooker through the flaming wall?

I agree however, that children that are rigorously sheltered from the realities of life are often incapable of fending for themselves. That being said, self-sufficiency is not something a child will learn from violent video games.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ZNFYRH; Knowing what to do in case of a fire is not even close to knowing the morality and ethics behind killing, drugs, and prostitution.

It's all of an equal seriousness and mature responsibility is what it is... I knew how to make mature responsibilities when I needed to, just as much as I did at 7. The only difference I remember between those ages, was what math was being taught in school..... and we all know math is useless in todays world

Children absorb a lot in their younger, developing years, so the more you teach them at an early age, the better they're off later.

I was taught how to basically survive for a few days on my own in case of an emergency or lost, etc.

Learn what a drug dealer or a prostitute sounds or looks like, and then look for the cop if lost, etc.

As I have been saying from the begining, you guys are right that in the wrong hands of stupid and irresponsible parents, it may not be wise to let the kid play it..... but not all cases are the same, therefore leave it to the parent.

[ruksak]

I'm reading through your posts, Praxius, and I'm still not understanding how its healthy in any way for a child to play a game for hours on end that has zero substantive content. A game that interweaves extreme cursing as an ambient soundtrack. A game that keeps careful record of how many murders you've committed.

If you support and approve of your child owning and playing a game of this nature, they will make note of your approval in their psyche.

[Muckraker]

Quote by: Praxius It's all of an equal seriousness and mature responsibility is what it is... I knew how to make mature responsibilities when I needed to, just as much as I did at 7. The only difference I remember between those ages, was what math was being taught in school..... and we all know math is useless in todays world Children absorb a lot in their younger, developing years, so the more you teach them at an early age, the better they're off later. I was taught how to basically survive for a few days on my own in case of an emergency or lost, etc. Learn what a drug dealer or a prostitute sounds or looks like, and then look for the cop if lost, etc. As I have been saying from the begining, you guys are right that in the wrong hands of stupid and irresponsible parents, it may not be wise to let the kid play it..... but not all cases are the same, therefore leave it to the parent.

Praxius - Do you have a PHD in child development?

Your statements about what children are capable of understanding at different ages has no backing what-so-ever other than what you think you remember from that age.

Your anecdote about your house burning down has no bearing in this discussion. A house fire is not "an adult situation" as defined by this discussion of GTA3 and porn.

Until we get some hard evidence from the other side of the fence that uses data from respectable child development sources for support, I don't even see there being two sides of this argument. Kids are impressionable, as is proven by science.

To subject kids to entertainment meant for adults with no parental guidance to help make sense of the material is wrong. It is logically, scientifically, developmentally, and legally wrong.

Unless we get something other than "my parents were negligent and I turned out fine" then there is no argument here to be had.

As I said before, these are adult games that are intended for adult entertainment. It is no different than hard core porn. The problem of kids viewing and playing adult entertainment, though, is 100% in the hands of the parents unless the parents are shown to be negligent and abusing their children, such as forcing them to watch hardcore porn.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak; I'm reading through your posts, Praxius, and I'm still not understanding how its healthy in any way for a child to play a game for hours on end that has zero substantive content. A game that interweaves extreme cursing as an ambient soundtrack. A game that keeps careful record of how many murders you've committed. If you support and approve of your child owning and playing a game of this nature, they will make note of your approval in their psyche.

*sigh* like, whatever

There are many spots with substantive content, and lessons, unfortunatly it's been lost on you because you can't get past the violence that's out in the real world everyday....

[ruksak]

Just to make my self clear, you're talking to a guy that takes his 8 year old daughter to a shooting range once a month. I enrolled my daughter in a class that teaches self-defense to adolescents. I don't white wash the world for her viewing pleasure. I make a point out of making her watch news reports with me about kidnappers and child killers, than discussing it in a way as to educate her without installing unnecessary fear. There is a proper way to arm your child for combating the ugliness of the real world, and there are improper ways to do this. I would suggest allowing a software company to entertain her with random senseless violence, is well categorized as improper.

There are many spots with substantive content, and lessons,

So you admit it. Children learn from video games. How noble of you to be selective as to what exactly they learn. They only learn the good "lessons", and not the bad? Explain yourself sir.

[Praxius]

Quote by: ruksak; So you admit it. Children learn from video games. How noble of you to be selective as to what exactly they learn. They only learn the good "lessons", and not the bad? Explain yourself sir.

Speaking of being selective.... No I don't admit it, because I never denied it in the first place..... if you read my posts, you might have realised this by now.... but instead, here we are going in circles yet again..... shall I lead this time?

I never picked and chose anything.... I said with the proper education and guidance as you posted, a child can be responsible with their decisions and own morals. If they feel it's wrong to play the game and they don't like the violence or messages, or whatever negative things you can think of, then so be it..... nobody is saying GTA should be in every household, cripes.

Why can't you just leave it as simple as "Leaving it up to the parents to decide?"

What's so wrong with that concept that you don't seem to understand?

Technically, someone could find it imoral or wrong to take your kids off to go shooting. Not I personally, but you should see my point.

[prejudged_Fire]

Technically, someone could find it imoral or wrong to take your kids off to go shooting.

Yup, and self defense too. I wanted to take karate when I was younger but my dad wouldn't let me because it was "teaching you how to kill". Pshh.. :rolleyes:

Anyway, I'm still not sure which side of the fence I'm on, so please continue :)

[Praxius]

Well that's pretty much all I really have to say, unless someone else misunderstands a scene in the GTA scene, and blow it out of porpotion.

[ruksak]

Quote by: Praxius There are many spots with substantive content, and lessons, unfortunatly it's been lost on you because you can't get past the violence that's out in the real world everyday....

Enlighten me than. I played the game all the way through and I can't think of to many instances of "substantive content", or "lessons" (I suppose you mean good lessons). What good lessons and substantive content is included in the game, specifically?

Quote by: Praxius Technically, someone could find it imoral or wrong to take your kids off to go shooting. Not I personally, but you should see my point.

Well sure. I mentioned this, and other things, so that you would know that you're not talking to a Christian fundi who thinks the evils of our media are trying to corrupt our children. I'm a hardworking, potsmoking, gun-packin, card carrying 4x4 club member that has played, and enjoyed, GTA.
I'm not one that wishes to impose my moral beliefs upon people. Which is where I'm comin' from on this issue. To me, allowing and approving of a young child playing games like GTA, is not a moral issue. Its a common sense issue. One doesn't need to be well versed at child psychology to understand this.

[ZNFYRH]

Seconded.

But Praxius detailed the lessons earlier.

What I pointed out, though, was that they rely on an understanding of the world, ethics, and morality that a 7 year old doesn't have.

[ruksak]

Quote by: ZNFYRH But Praxius detailed the lessons earlier.

I'm missing that. Don't see it. Maybe he'll be so kind as to try again?

[ZNFYRH]

Hard to read through the posting habits and rude comments.