What is Freedom?

[sdbest]

"Freedom" now there's a word that's used freely, and rarely defined. It's a notion that some on Volconvo cherish deeply. I googled the question "What is freedom?" Not surprising, there are many views, many conflicting views, about what freedom in fact is. There are views about how a society can promote or curtail freedom or freedoms. Some say that without economic freedom, political freedom is impossible. Some say all property is theft and curtails freedom, others say that property rights are the basis of freedom. Do your own google search to read about these various positions.

So, tell us what is your definition of "freedom" and, as importantly, why should anyone else accept it and your exercise of your notion of freedom.

Regards
S.

[ibm]

this could be too big of a topic. but anyways...

to me, freedom generally means one's rights and ability to think, speak and act as he wishes.

of course, we all know people interact with each other and one's thinking, speach and action have an impact onto others'. that's where the limitation resides.

[Praxius]

If you want to know what freedom truly feels like.... go out into the forest, camp and live there for a week with not having to worry about bills, collectors, a job, a government getting your taxes, bosses telling you what to do..... live out there as humans once did and feel what freedom once was..... not having to worry about all the useless stuff in the world, except feeding yourself, making a shelter and just living as you see fit.

This is the root of all freedom, which most animals and plants in the world live everyday...... The only danger to freedom is ourselves.

[nm420]

Quote by: Praxius If you want to know what freedom truly feels like.... go out into the forest, camp and live there for a week with not having to worry about bills, collectors, a job, a government getting your taxes, bosses telling you what to do..... live out there as humans once did and feel what freedom once was..... not having to worry about all the useless stuff in the world, except feeding yourself, making a shelter and just living as you see fit. This is the root of all freedom, which most animals and plants in the world live everyday...... The only danger to freedom is ourselves.

Hear hear!

To add just a bit more than that, I would note that "freedom" generally implies freedom from something, and what that something is depends on the type of freedom one is discussing. When talking about various societies, it seems people talk about freedom from oppression or coercion. While that sort of freedom is just dandy, it should be recognized that this sort of freedom is something that one has very little control over. Perhaps more important is the freedom from fear, something a bit more manageable at the personal level and can eventually win freedom from oppression at the societal level with enough "free spirits" behind it.

[Autolykos]

I use "freedom" in three main ways.

Metaphysically, I consider "freedom" to be synonymous with "free will". Here freedom cannot be denied, taken away, etc. In a metaphysical sense, freedom is an inherent property of man.

Physically, I consider "freedom" to mean "the absence of outside physical forces". This usage ties in with free will in the sense that one may wish to do something, but external forces prevent him from doing so.

Socially, I consider "freedom" to mean "the absence of outside physical forces directly caused by other human beings". Of course, what constitutes direct causation in the context of human beings may be open to debate.

- Rob

[Alive]

Quote by: Praxius If you want to know what freedom truly feels like.... go out into the forest, camp and live there for a week with not having to worry about bills, collectors, a job, a government getting your taxes, bosses telling you what to do..... live out there as humans once did and feel what freedom once was..... not having to worry about all the useless stuff in the world, except feeding yourself, making a shelter and just living as you see fit..

About that "feeding yourself" part. What do you eat? Live entirely off the land? Do you hunt or just eat wild plants? And you know which ones are edible, do you? Get 3 full meals a day?

[Nigh Eve]

Freedom is a lack of restriction in comparison to another state of being or system in that vector. Freedom in one vector of being is equal to no restriction in that vector.

I find that freedom is usually used to define a counter to the superstition of the result of systematic, social and political worlds - "rules" basically. In reality, we are all free; there are no chains, there are no rules. Sometimes freedoms will conflict, however, but that's freedom for you! Our bodies and minds are all that truly restrict our own freedom.

Quote by: Alive About that "feeding yourself" part. What do you eat? Live entirely off the land? Do you hunt or just eat wild plants? And you know which ones are edible, do you? Get 3 full meals a day?

Yes. It's not that hard. People just tend to be used to their learned ways of living and forget about where it all came from. Of course, with so many people and governments around, non-privatized plant and animal populations are rather restricted so...yeah, that makes it more difficult to live freely unless you see through them and take it anyhows. That's why we drive a loooong ways away where no one is there with a big hand or a watchful eye. One large animal feeds you for a long time. Plants are very easy to come by, you just pick them. You can boil them if your afraid of bugs, bacteria etc.

Camping and food is a great combo too. It just tastes so much better cooked over a fire and in the untainted by technology environment.

If you're knowledgeable enough you can eventually identify which substances offer what in terms of effects. Some plants offer protection against infection when ground up and applied to a wound for example. I know of one here in Alberta and it's common enough to find a bunch of it in the yard where I currently work.

But that was off-topic. :eek:

[LordArchaleon]

Quote by: Praxius If you want to know what freedom truly feels like.... go out into the forest, camp and live there for a week with not having to worry about bills, collectors, a job, a government getting your taxes, bosses telling you what to do..... live out there as humans once did and feel what freedom once was..... not having to worry about all the useless stuff in the world, except feeding yourself, making a shelter and just living as you see fit. This is the root of all freedom, which most animals and plants in the world live everyday...... The only danger to freedom is ourselves.

Starscream, isolation isn't freedom. It means not having children, clean hot water to bathe with, or an electric iron for your dress shirts. It means you'll run out of toothpaste. It means no chick in her right mind would ever talk to you.

Dammit, how is anyone supposed to respect your opinion when you come up with shit so far out that everyone is embarassed and disappointed? It's like you think this is funny.

You will never get laid, and I won't either if I pretend to like you. So, that's life, kid. Sorry.

[Praxius]

Quote by: LordArchaleon Starscream, isolation isn't freedom.

Who said anything about isolation... bring who ever you want.... the point is getting away and just living with what you were born with to survive for a weekend or something.... I never promoted being a Hermit.

It means not having children

Never said that.... go out and club a cave woman or bring your girlfriend... whichever is easiest.

clean hot water to bathe with

You can make clean hot water to bath in with fire and some water from a spring, lake or river..... I suppose you'd rather take a hot city water shower over a nice waterfall in the middle of the summer?

or an electric iron for your dress shirts

Ha ha.... Yeah right.... cuz you know Bears really like food in a suit.... what the heck would you need dress shirts and an Iron in the forest? Who would you be trying to impress?

It means you'll run out of toothpaste.

Ever notice how every other creature on this planet tends to not require tooth paste except us? It's all about diet and hygen.

It means no chick in her right mind would ever talk to you.

You gotta get out more and meet some more women.

Dammit, how is anyone supposed to respect your opinion when you come up with shit so far out that everyone is embarassed and disappointed? It's like you think this is funny.

It is funny.... esspecially with moronic responses like your own that have no clue as to what I'm trying to explain.... stick your head back in your hole and forget everything I said then.

The question about what is freedom was asked, I answered, if you think what I said was foolish, that's your own ignorance.

You will never get laid, and I won't either if I pretend to like you. So, that's life, kid. Sorry.

*snickers* What? Kid? Never get Laid? Man.... keep typing your words there.... you sound more foolish everytime.... I don't even need to get into a pissing compitition with you on how many relationships I had or who I had sex with.... and you clearly have no clue as to my age.

THANK YOU COME AGAIN!

[sdbest]

Quote by: Autolykos I use "freedom" in three main ways. Metaphysically, I consider "freedom" to be synonymous with "free will". Here freedom cannot be denied, taken away, etc. In a metaphysical sense, freedom is an inherent property of man. Physically, I consider "freedom" to mean "the absence of outside physical forces". This usage ties in with free will in the sense that one may wish to do something, but external forces prevent him from doing so. Socially, I consider "freedom" to mean "the absence of outside physical forces directly caused by other human beings". Of course, what constitutes direct causation in the context of human beings may be open to debate. - Rob

Isn't it ironic that, given the definitions you've suggested, a person could enjoy metaphysical freedom, social freedom, and as much physical freedom as possible, and utterly lack the wherewithal to do anything with their freedom.

One wonders what's the good of freedom if you still couldn't do anything you might want or acquire what you might need.

Under your definitions Rob, one can be perfectly free--which many argue is a good thing, even the highest human aspiration--and die of starvation through no fault of his or her own.

Regards
S.

[Netopalis]

I personally consider freedom to be a state of mind - if you believe that you are in control of your life and that you have a multitude of choices that you could take (but do not necessarily wish to), then you will consider yourself to be free. Further, this "freedom" state of mind also, in my opinion, has to do with self-confidence. If you believe yourself to be inferior, you will not feel quite as free as someone who feels that they are equal to their peers. Actions taken by authorities merely limit our options and self-confidence in regards to this state of mind. Of course, this is all opinion...

[grandpa]

Quote by: Netopalis I personally consider freedom to be a state of mind - if you believe that you are in control of your life and that you have a multitude of choices that you could take (but do not necessarily wish to), then you will consider yourself to be free. Further, this "freedom" state of mind also, in my opinion, has to do with self-confidence.

There is much truth to what you say. But what then would you perceive as a threat to freedom? Ideology?

Grandpa h.

[Netopalis]

A threat to freedom is merely an action taken by another that significantly limits one's choices without need. Obviously, a certain amount of limitation is needed - for example, a police force to eliminate choices such as murder. Although I hadn't considered it earlier, though, I do suppose that ideology could be considered a threat to freedom, if it were an ideology that were forced upon a person and which both significantly lowers self esteem and lowers the number of choices available. However, were this ideology freely chosen, then that itself would be a choice, and I don't know how that would work...

[grandpa]

Quote by: Netopalis A threat to freedom is merely an action taken by another that significantly limits one's choices without need. Obviously, a certain amount of limitation is needed - for example, a police force to eliminate choices such as murder.

I agree with your perception of threats to freedom. There are a lot of things that "limit one's choices without need."

But your point about police is obviously not correct. Police don't eliminate murder. In fact, they often are vicious murderers themselves.

Grandpa h.

[Netopalis]

Well, it eliminates murder as a viable choice - we know, for instance, that serious consequences will occur should we make that choice.

[lsbskins1]

This is why I consider philosopical musing on anything to be important for informing our opinions and good for exercising our brains, but usless when it comes to practical application. "Freedom" can be nothing more than a nebulous debating point when separated from real world complications. Freedom can never be absolutely defined. In the end, when we get down to the business of trying to secure it, we bump up against those varired definitions. The only answer that moves us towards practical application is some form of concensus, and that means some people will have to deal with what they consider imperfect freedom in order to have any. The alternative is inaction, which means no freedom.

[Praxius]

Quote by: lsbskins1 This is why I consider philosopical musing on anything to be important for informing our opinions and good for exercising our brains, but usless when it comes to practical application. "Freedom" can be nothing more than a nebulous debating point when separated from real world complications. Freedom can never be absolutely defined. In the end, when we get down to the business of trying to secure it, we bump up against those varired definitions. The only answer that moves us towards practical application is some form of concensus, and that means some people will have to deal with what they consider imperfect freedom in order to have any. The alternative is inaction, which means no freedom.

Agreed... which is why I gave my response.... the core essence of what all we understand or think freedom is, comes from nature and our natural instincts..... with our intelligence we attempt to build a foundation of more complex forms of freedom, freedom of labour towards different kinds of everyday work....

We make washer machines, cars, airplanes, TVs, the Internet, etc.... to make our lives easier, but at the same time, we also make our lives more difficult in other aspects, since we begin to rely on those new technologies that make us free from one thing, we begin to become entrapped by them due to relying on them more.......

In nature, it's still similar.... you have the freedom of all that, however you are not free from the concept of survival.... you always give up one freedom for another.... prefference I suppose, which would explain why many other countries around the world who use other forms of Government besides Democracy are still happy with their lives..... sure they may not have some freedoms we have, but we don't have some freedoms they have, and so on.

This is also why some countries give great resistance when a totally new form of government and way of life is thrown on them.

[LadiesMan217]

Freedom to me is being able to think what I want, say what I want, write what I want, read what I want, do what I want, work if I want, live where I want, make as much money as I want according to how hard I work, practice religion how, when and where I want, and being able to change something about the system if I want, all within the reasonable and just laws of society, without fear of being slandered, imprisoned, beaten or killed.

[MachineCode0110]

To me freedom means that nothing would attempt to stop you from doing anything that you wanted to do.

[sdbest]

Quote by: MachineCode0110 To me freedom means that nothing would attempt to stop you from doing anything that you wanted to do.

In your view, would any infringements on your freedom be justifiable?

Regards
S.