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| | #61 (permalink) (top) | |
![]() Aristotle Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 4,589 | Quote:
Why don't you rebuttel and say why the concept works? | |
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| | #62 (permalink) (top) | |
| blasphemer Location: Michigan Posts: 7,973 | Quote:
Grandpa h. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (unless it costs something). | |
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| | #63 (permalink) (top) |
| Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873 | I am not answering in this thread because it is moronic, and below the respect of a reply that contains logic, something most of the proponents in here deny exists. (Isbskins, Gramps, Sdbest) However, thanks for the laughs.... ![]() Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready |
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| | #64 (permalink) (top) | |
| Guest Posts: n/a | Quote:
Regards S. | |
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| | #65 (permalink) (top) |
| Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873 | Oh, I could refute their analysis if it was based on logic, facts and not emotion. Since it is based in emotion, it really doesn't deserve to be refuted, since it isn't proving anything except how they "feel". Libertarianism as a religion? ROLFMAO. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready |
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| | #66 (permalink) (top) | |
| blasphemer Location: Michigan Posts: 7,973 | Quote:
On top of that, why assume that emotion, moral appeals, etc. cannot be paired with logic? For example, my argument that there's nothing "Libertarian" about rounding up and deporting people is based on sound analysis. It doesn't mean I'm totally neutral on the subject emotionally. By applying logic, I know such behavior is indeed despotic and creates far more problems than it solves. Grandpa h. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you (unless it costs something). | |
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| | #67 (permalink) (top) | |
![]() BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320 | Quote:
Hmmm, is it "despotic", or within the "legal duty" of the elected officials? As a matter of fact, isn't it a deriliction of duty not to round these people up under the current law? Why yes, I believe it is. | |
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| | #68 (permalink) (top) |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | So you are all for the violent state oppression as long as the state is enforcing the law as YOU see fit, but against violent enforcement if they are collecting taxes you don't want to pay? Is that how your version of the Libertarian ideal works? I could be misreading your point here. This is about libertarian ideals. If you aren't a libertarian and just think the government should round up all illegal immigrants, then the question/point wasn't aimed at you. If you are a libertarian and hold all those "the state should not be in the violent enforcement business" ideals, then the point is very relavent. That would be tyranny, under the logical extention of points libertarians claim to hold dear. All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay |
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| | #69 (permalink) (top) | |
![]() Moderator Location: Wales Posts: 2,272 | Quote:
Society may be formed so as to exist without crime, without poverty, […] no obstacle whatsoever intervenes at this moment except ignorance to prevent such a state of society. Robert Owen | |
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| | #70 (permalink) (top) | |
![]() BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320 | Quote:
It's the same stumbling block your side trips over every single time, the law. It's the damn law! Imagine, a person of libertarian persuasion actually desiring an environment of law, and order, or a government holding up it;s end of the agreement. You people are priceless. | |
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| | #71 (permalink) (top) | |
![]() BANNED Location: Ohio Province, Rep. of Comerica Posts: 7,320 | Quote:
Where is the violent oppression of known criminals hiding from the law? We are just advocating putting them back where they belong. Laws must be constitutional before I can cheerlead from the sidelines, so there is little I can can say about the tax comment without completely diverting the topic. | |
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| | #72 (permalink) (top) | |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | Quote:
All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay | |
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| | #73 (permalink) (top) | |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | Quote:
Where is the violent oppression when known criminals (tax evaders) are arrested and put in jail for breaking law that is just as established and binding as immigration law? You do not have to agree with the law. You can work to change the law. Those are your rights as a citizen. It is not my, your or any one else's right to ignore the law because we do not like it. That is not your right as a citizen. Vote, petition, organize - all those are protected rights. And historically speaking, if you think your only option is rebellion, you better win. All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay | |
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| | #74 (permalink) (top) |
| mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,284 | I'm still waiting for someone to address my point that calls the whole theory into question. Let's make it simple. The entire population of the planet is destroyed and there are only 5 people living on an island. How does this tiny nation become libertarian? By the support of 3 of the natives who have strong libertarian principles. Now with that in place, tell me how anyone becomes a tyrant of the island. Now, if it is hard to be a tyrant when you are 1 against five. Consider how much harder it would be if you are 1 against a hundred million people with strong libertarian principles. Or... tell me how a nation can become purely libertarian without such a majority. |
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| | #75 (permalink) (top) | |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | Quote:
Read The Lord of the Flies and you will have your answer. All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay | |
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| | #76 (permalink) (top) |
| mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,284 | Thanks lsb, and good point. So then consider the nation that becomes libertarian because a majority with no strong principles exists and is convinced by a minority of libertarians with strong principles. In this case, the libertarians won't necessarily be able to defend from a tyrant who woos the weakly principled majority. But could one not say the same about any ideology? |
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| | #77 (permalink) (top) | |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | Quote:
All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay | |
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| | #78 (permalink) (top) |
| Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873 | This whole thread is "speculative", "hypothetical" nonsense, which is the main reason I have avoided it. It is a denial of common sense, a travesty of logic. Every single shred of Libertarianism prevents tyranny, and it is the concept of Libertarianism and objective law that brought us to the realization of individual rights, and equality UNDER the law. Some of the more emotional in here claim Libertarians have no respect for the law, or that they are truly anarchists who don't believe in law, which is as far from the truth as one could possibly stray. Property rights and individual rights are fundamental to a nation of law where individuals are viewed as responsible citizens. Does anyone have any legitimate questions about Libertarianism? “Free men are not equal. Equal men are not free.” “The new version of rights are not any kind of rights that our founders fought for and created a government over, and the idea that law should be an instruction manual telling us exactly how high our railings should be and how many square feet the nursery school is, is not anything that existed in our country when I was growing up. It's a brand new invention, and it doesn't work.” -Philip Howard, author of The Death of Common Sense: How Law Is Suffocating America, on C-SPAN's Booknotes 1995-Feb-12 Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready |
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| | #79 (permalink) (top) | |
| Redskins Rule Location: South-Western Virginia Posts: 2,481 | Quote:
All I see when I look down, something jumpin' on the ground, Scratchin' dirt, cluckin' in the barnyard - Tell me, could that be you? John Kay | |
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| | #80 (permalink) (top) |
| mostly harmless Location: USA Posts: 1,284 | Let's compare: miles of fences along roads to keep other's dumb kids from getting run over, or a small fence around your swing set to protect your kids from wandering off and hurting themselves not only at roads but also swimming pools, trees, rivers, cliffs, and wandering pedofiles. |
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