Myth of the Free Market

[sdbest]

Even the most modest research effort produces an extraordinary number of scholarly articles debunking the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of "Free Markets", for example ECONOMIC MYTHS by David C. Korten. It seems that faith in free markets correcting most human problems is just that "faith." And, like faith in a god, there seems to be little empirical evidence--but lots of theory--to justify absolute faith in something (like gods) that has never existed, can never exist, and which, if it did, would wreck havoc on the lives of most people.

Regards
S.

[Autolykos]

Understand that you're not just baiting here -- you're dishing out chum to hungry sharks.

Quote by: sdbest Even the most modest research effort produces an extraordinary number of scholarly articles debunking the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of "Free Markets", for example ECONOMIC MYTHS by David C. Korten.

I think it would be more accurate to say "an extraordinary number of scholarly articles claiming to debunk the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of 'Free Markets'". Currently I'm reading the "Economic Myths" article that you linked to. A review of it will be forthcoming.

It seems that faith in free markets correcting most human problems is just that "faith." And, like faith in a god, there seems to be little empirical evidence--but lots of theory--to justify absolute faith in something (like gods) that has never existed, can never exist, and which, if it did, would wreck havoc on the lives of most people.

Now this is interesting. I can't speak for others here, but personally I have no faith in anything, including free markets. Rather, I simply consider free markets to be the natural outcome of human beings interacting with one another peacefully. The alternative is to initiate violence, which brings (or attempts to bring) government.

I don't claim that free markets will correct human problems. Actually, I'm not even sure just what you mean by "human problems". Everyone seems to have a different idea of what is a problem and what is not. What is important is recognizing that solving one human problem (in one person's view) can give rise to others (in other people's or even the same person's views), meaning that there are no absolute problems and solutions. Rather, they exist as trade-offs. One does not need faith to recognize this apparent fact.

However, in the same breath, you claim that free markets have never existed and that, indeed, they cannot exist in the first place! If that is so, then why spend your time and energy chasing a shadow? You undermine your own claim by arguing against free markets in the first place, which implies that you think they can exist.

- Rob

[smallpox]

Now this is interesting. I can't speak for others here, but personally I have no faith in anything, including free markets. Rather, I simply consider free markets to be the natural outcome of human beings interacting with one another peacefully. The alternative is to initiate violence, which brings (or attempts to bring) government.

Yeah, it's not like wars are economically motivated hahahahaha.

[billybobama]

Quote by: sdbest Even the most modest research effort produces an extraordinary number of scholarly articles debunking the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of "Free Markets", for example ECONOMIC MYTHS by David C. Korten. It seems that faith in free markets correcting most human problems is just that "faith." And, like faith in a god, there seems to be little empirical evidence--but lots of theory--to justify absolute faith in something (like gods) that has never existed, can never exist, and which, if it did, would wreck havoc on the lives of most people. Regards S.

I will show you a very easy way to debunk the Free Market Myth. Nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing is FREE. If any body says the word FREE or prefixes anything with FREE, they have just lied to you.

[sdbest]

Quote by: Autolykos Understand that you're not just baiting here -- you're dishing out chum to hungry sharks. You undermine your own claim by arguing against free markets in the first place, which implies that you think they can exist. - Rob

Few of the sharks seem to have risen to the bloody bait.

To clarify, I don't think free markets--if I correctly understand the term used by many conservatives--can exist. Politics and economics make them impossible. The myth however is used to promote market policies and trade laws that benefit the rich at the expense of the poor.

At any rate, I await your view of the article and the attack of the free marketers.

Regards
S.

[xyzer]

Is there a better alternative? It seems that government control of markets has proven the worst way to go for many nations? Russia, Cuba, come to mind. China a communist socialist nation has even broken down and allowed a free market economy in some areas. And it hasn't tried to change the free market economy of Hong Kong that it inherited some decade back?.
ergo, I suggest that free markets are the best way to go. It has been proven that some tempering rules(laws) must accompany the system or its participants will cooperate and even form cartels and monopolies.(OPEC) thereby controlling demand and the resultant prices. So I would agree with Korten that unfettered free markets are mythical but if accompanied by minimum restrictions, they beat models governed by government intrusion. They are the best way to go...

[sdbest]

Quote by: xyzer Is there a better alternative?

Sure, a mixed economy, as prevails in most of the western European countries, where markets and social programs are balanced. Where the former doesn't preclude the latter and the latter doesn't stifle the former. And, where the wealthy are constrained from preventing the advancement of those who would compete with them.

Regards
S.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: smallpox Yeah, it's not like wars are economically motivated hahahahaha.

Violence and other crime is never economically motivated, in the sense of seeking to acquire what others have? Please.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: billybobama I will show you a very easy way to debunk the Free Market Myth. Nothing, I repeat absolutely nothing is FREE. If any body says the word FREE or prefixes anything with FREE, they have just lied to you.

Equivocation. In the phrase "free market" the word "free" is synonymous with "unrestrained". On the other hand, in "nothing is free", "free" is synonymous with "effortless" and "without sacrifice" (including the sacrifice of something you currently own). Obviously, these two meanings of the word "free" are disparate.

- Rob

[Osborn F Enready]

sdbest, what is a "black market"?

[Alive]

Some of what the article says is wrong, some of it is right, but none of it supports the point. The solution to the problems associated with globalism and free economies is to solve the problems associated with globalism and free economies, not to end globalism and free economies. The benefits are more than the costs.

The main correct point made by the article is the environmental costs of freedom. The truth of the matter is any increase in productivity without corresponding increases in technology will increase environmental problems; the fact that trade is bringing about the productivity increase is incidental. The real cause of the problem, however, is not trade but nationalism, which makes it impossible for any world body to stop an individual country from polluting as much as it wants. Nationalism is the enemy, not globalism.

[sdbest]

Quote by: Autolykos Violence and other crime is never economically motivated, in the sense of seeking to acquire what others have? Please. - Rob

Rob, please clarify, This seems counter-intuitive. If a car theft is not economically motivated, what is the motivation for the thief?

Regards
S.

[billybobama]

Quote by: sdbest Even the most modest research effort produces an extraordinary number of scholarly articles debunking the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of "Free Markets", for example ECONOMIC MYTHS by David C. Korten. It seems that faith in free markets correcting most human problems is just that "faith." And, like faith in a god, there seems to be little empirical evidence--but lots of theory--to justify absolute faith in something (like gods) that has never existed, can never exist, and which, if it did, would wreck havoc on the lives of most people. Regards S.

Some asshole has bugged your thread. Volconvo is loaded down with assholes. But it is still hard to debate something that does not exist. Free Trade and Free Markets have never existed and never will exist.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: sdbest Rob, please clarify, This seems counter-intuitive. If a car theft is not economically motivated, what is the motivation for the thief?

Clarification: I meant that violence and crime in general is very often economically motivated -- again, in the sense of acquiring what others have. Car theft is a perfect example.

- Rob

[MachineCode0110]

Quote by: sdbest David C. Korten, "When Corporations Rule the World"

A corporation is when the government protects a business from risk.




The free market is a market that is free from all government regulation.










Nice try though.

[billybobama]

Quote by: Autolykos Equivocation. In the phrase "free market" the word "free" is synonymous with "unrestrained". On the other hand, in "nothing is free", "free" is synonymous with "effortless" and "without sacrifice" (including the sacrifice of something you currently own). Obviously, these two meanings of the word "free" are disparate. - Rob

You are just too easy. In the history of all mankind there has never been a totally unrestricted our uncontrolled market. I stand by my initial statement. Try something else.

[billybobama]

Quote by: Autolykos Equivocation. In the phrase "free market" the word "free" is synonymous with "unrestrained". On the other hand, in "nothing is free", "free" is synonymous with "effortless" and "without sacrifice" (including the sacrifice of something you currently own). Obviously, these two meanings of the word "free" are disparate. - Rob

Or you can try it this way. Name me one "FREE MARKET" that has ever existed. Try and show some evidence. Nothing to elaborate.

[MachineCode0110]

Somalia had no government for a good number of years.


That was a free market and it actually did amazingly well.

[Osborn F Enready]

A free market is not free from all regulation.......

The only regulation in a free market is the protection of the individuals rights who make up that market.

Individual rights are ALL that are enforced in a free market.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: billybobama You are just too easy. In the history of all mankind there has never been a totally unrestricted our uncontrolled market. I stand by my initial statement. Try something else.

Quote by: billybobama Or you can try it this way. Name me one "FREE MARKET" that has ever existed. Try and show some evidence. Nothing to elaborate.

First you commit an equivocation, which I have kindly pointed out. Now you commit a red herring in response.

I have nothing more to say here.

- Rob