Myth of the Free Market

[Autolykos]

Quote by: billybobama The point is Free Markets do not exist, never have existed and never will exist. Free Market is just a fantasy. Back to my original point. Nothing is FREE.

So now you simply repeat what you have already said. I can only conclude that you are either unable or unwilling to comprehend logical arguments.

- Rob

[Athena]

Quote by: sdbest Even the most modest research effort produces an extraordinary number of scholarly articles debunking the Conservative and Libertarian notions of the efficacy of "Free Markets", for example ECONOMIC MYTHS by David C. Korten. It seems that faith in free markets correcting most human problems is just that "faith." And, like faith in a god, there seems to be little empirical evidence--but lots of theory--to justify absolute faith in something (like gods) that has never existed, can never exist, and which, if it did, would wreck havoc on the lives of most people. Regards S.

This thread may be a good place to put an explanation of what happened to Germany's economy. It makes me feel very nervious, because the cost of housing has inflatted so much in my life time, which the value of the dollar has deflatted. Now economic TV programs are discussing if we have gone too far, and if so, will we avoid another economic collapse. From "Europe Sinde 1914".

The result of these repeated inflations of the currency during the early months of the republic was the contined depreciation of the mark. By May, 1921, when Germany was forced to accept the decision of the Reparation Commission, the mark had declined to over sixty to the dollar; and in June 1, 1921, the Reichsbank for the first time began to pay a premium for gold coin, thus officially recognizing the inflation. This depreciation of the mark operated still further to keep the national budget unbalanced, for taxes, assed with the mark at one figure, were paid later with a mark depreciated below that figure. The continued deficits which resulted led to still more inflation. By November, 1922, the mark had sunk to about 7,000 to the dollar. The occupation of the Ruhr by the Frendch and the Beligans and the adoption by Germany of the policy of passive resistance, with the accompanying need for sudsidizing idle workers, started the mark upon its toboggan slide. By the close of January, 1923, it stood at 50,000 to the dollar. In spite of the heroic attempts of the Reichsbank to stop its disastrous decline, the descent continued. By July it stood at 160,000 and during the month it declined to 1,100,000 to the dollar. ... In 1923 over thirty paper factories were working full time exclusively for the Reichsbank, and 133 printing offices and 1,783 machinces were engaged at top speed in producing paper currency. In spite of all this, the supply of currency became insufficient.

People stop banking their money when inflation is this bad, and start buying commodities, which for awhile improves the economy. We are told the engine of our economy is consumerism. Our gross national product is not product, but how many times a dollar changes hands. In a consumer economy with almost full employment of its adult population, the dollar changes hands rapidly, But these consumers are in debt and the national debt, which caused the inflation in Germany, is growing.

If the spending slows down, the gross national product slows down, and if it slows down too much, the value of the dollar will depreciated- that is economic collapse, and this time it will be worse than the Great Depression, because we no longer have the resources to pull us out, but have become importers of vital resoucres. However, for a while in this mess- the rich get richer and the poor get poorer, because they buy up so much and gain control of revenue producing property. However.... when the stock crashed, investors left on cruises millionaires and returned home paupers. Our dollar is backed by the turn over of dollars, and if it slows down, the gross national product no longer supports the value of the dollar. At least at the time of the Great Depression, the dollar was backed with gold and real productivity, made with natural resources and sold over seas, and our nation didn't have to important much and the debt wasn't as it is today.

PS the value of money is a myth.

[Chris the Chees]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready A free market is not free from all regulation....... The only regulation in a free market is the protection of the individuals rights who make up that market. Individual rights are ALL that are enforced in a free market.

Oh? And who enforces these rights? How are they funded and who regulates them?

billbobama, the black market is a free market. The black market exists because market demand CAN'T be regulated away, therefore, the demand provides the profit motive for those willing to break the law to provide that product. The black market is a "free market" that has no regulation whatsoever, and market prices are completely dictated by the market demand and available supply. The black market also happens to be the most profitable market worldwide.

Firstly do you have any statistic evidence to show that black market goods sell at a higher volume and generate more profit than legitimate goods? Do you suppose that a black market seller of untaxed alcoholic beverages does better than a chain bar or brewery or distillary? I very much doubt it.

And secondly if you wish to cite the black market as how you see a free market operating, then surely it proves what a disaster unregulated laissez faire capitalism actually is; because the black market being unregulated, is the most open to cartelisation, monopolies, individual and human rights abuses, poor product quality, etc.

If you think that a system like the black market is the way forward, then thanks but no thanks.

[billybobama]

Quote by: Autolykos So now you simply repeat what you have already said. I can only conclude that you are either unable or unwilling to comprehend logical arguments. - Rob

You have yet to show me 1, just 1 FREE MARKET that has existed since the birth of the Human Race. Now your opinion does not count. I say this to people who I know do not understand DEBATE.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: billybobama You have yet to show me 1, just 1 FREE MARKET that has existed since the birth of the Human Race. Now your opinion does not count. I say this to people who I know do not understand DEBATE.

Trading that existed before organized governments was naturally a free market, since it was impossible for governments to regulate it, since they did not exist.

You have yet to respond to this example of a free market.

If this is not a free market, please provide your concise definition of what a free market is, so that we can label it as outside the dominant paradigm and discontinue our participation in this discussion.

[Chris the Chees]

Trading that existed before organized governments was naturally a free market, since it was impossible for governments to regulate it, since they did not exist.

Not so. Even the earliest societies implimented crude regulation, even if it were unwitting. They also had taxation systems, tribute, etc. So no, I don't think it was entirely unregulated and free of intervention.

But even if it were, it has been progress which has led us away from such unstable, warlike and brutal times. If those in favour really do advocate such a regressive step backwards, then like the black market, they can keep it.

[ZNFYRH]

To add something to what Chris the Cheese has, in my opinion, correctly stated, if it were the best way, it wouldn't have changed.

[another day]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready billbobama, the black market is a free market. The black market exists because market demand CAN'T be regulated away, therefore, the demand provides the profit motive for those willing to break the law to provide that product. The black market is a "free market" that has no regulation whatsoever, and market prices are completely dictated by the market demand and available supply. The black market also happens to be the most profitable market worldwide.

Guess what else comes from the black market besides profit?

Violence. Lots of it.

No laws = law of the gun.

[Osborn F Enready]

You people missed the point.....

boneheadbobama demanded proof of a free market.

I provided one, that being the black market, which is FORCED out of the legal market by law, denying the REALITY that the market is strong enough to exist regardless of law.

It is a fact, that the black market is A form of free market, but NOT truly a free market in the sense of what the American Economy was intended.

A truly free market is a market un-regulated EXCEPT for the enforcement of individual rights, guaranteeing individuals equal access to the market as well as protection and legal recourse for fraud, coercion, etc.

Do you people arguing against the free market have any idea what a free market is? (And yes, I know BilliObama doesn't, nor does he understand economics.)

[ZNFYRH]

I have to agree with Osborn.

The Black Market is an example of Free Market, but is not the ideal Free Market.

When dealing with humans, the idealized form of something is rarely ever a reality.

[Autolykos]

Who said anything about "ideal"?

- Rob

[ZNFYRH]

It has been implied.

There is argument about a Free Market never having worked, and that's because, like government, there is an idealized form of how it would work perfectly.

[Autolykos]

Given an "ideal" standard, nothing works.

Thus, this argument is meaningless.

- Rob

[ZNFYRH]

Which argument is that, Auto?

[Autolykos]

Quote by: ZNFYRH There is argument about a Free Market never having worked, and that's because, like government, there is an idealized form of how it would work perfectly.

- Rob

Quote by: Autolykos Given an "ideal" standard, nothing works. Thus, this argument is meaningless. - Rob

Of course, compared to an "ideal" standard many, perhaps most, things will fall short. Nonetheless an "ideal' standard does provide a basis of comparison. And, that is not necessarily a bad thing, in my view.

Who would decide the "ideal" standard is, of course, another issue, but from your post I assume you were addressing the general premise and not any ideal standard in particular.

Regards
S.

[ZNFYRH]

Auto

If I'm reading correctly, you're saying that argument about Free Market is useless because it represents an ideal standard and ideal standards never work. Correct?

If so, do you think it would be a good idea to strive for a Free Market?

Quote by: Osborn F Enready A truly free market is a market un-regulated EXCEPT for the enforcement of individual rights, guaranteeing individuals equal access to the market as well as protection and legal recourse for fraud, coercion, etc.

Which, of course, means that a black market is not a free market. Black markets--like the illegal drug trade, for example--are often tyrannies that rely on violence, intimidation, fraud, coercion, etc.

Regards
S.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: sdbest Which, of course, means that a black market is not a free market. Black markets--like the illegal drug trade, for example--are often tyrannies that rely on violence, intimidation, fraud, coercion, etc.

Which does not implicate them as either free or unfree markets.

Free market means free of government control. A market can have, even "rely on" violence, intimidation, fraud, coercion, etc. If it is not coming from government, it is a free market.

American Heritage New Dictionary:
Free Market: The production and exchange of goods and services without interference from the government or from monopolies.

[ZNFYRH]

The production and exchange of goods and services without interference from the government or from monopolies.

So good luck getting a Free Market to work in a Capitalist economy.