Myth of the Free Market

[Osborn F Enready]

billbobama, the black market is a free market. The black market exists because market demand CAN'T be regulated away, therefore, the demand provides the profit motive for those willing to break the law to provide that product.

The black market is a "free market" that has no regulation whatsoever, and market prices are completely dictated by the market demand and available supply.

The black market also happens to be the most profitable market worldwide.

[smallpox]

It's funny how you seem to think that you're making any points, or posing any coherent arguments.

The irony stings.

[Alive]

Quote by: MachineCode0110 Because my family lives here.

Why don't you bring them with you?

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: billybobama Or you can try it this way. Name me one "FREE MARKET" that has ever existed. Try and show some evidence. Nothing to elaborate.

Quote by: Osborn F Enready billbobama, the black market is a free market. The black market exists because market demand CAN'T be regulated away, therefore, the demand provides the profit motive for those willing to break the law to provide that product. The black market is a "free market" that has no regulation whatsoever, and market prices are completely dictated by the market demand and available supply. The black market also happens to be the most profitable market worldwide.

Obviously. Ridiculous price inflation of drugs is a result of them being in the black market. Prices are 100% set by willing buyers and willing sellers. There is no regulation as to content or quality of the products - market forces determine for buyers who the good sellers are.

Here's where you come in and make one of the predictable reducto ad absurdium arguments you have been holding in your pocket, waiting for someone to DARE answer your challenge.
"But money - that's a government creation - they use money to sell drugs"

No, they use the fiat money of a system that does not regulate their to sell drugs when buyer and seller agree that is the exchange that will take place. They are not required to use that system, and frequently they do not. Drugs are often traded for property such as guns or cars, labor such as "muling", or sexual favors.
In short, in an unregulated system, choosing the method of payment for the transaction is part of the free market negotiation that occurs.

I should also add any trading that occurred before the existence of cohesive government. How did trade occur before governments? Unless, billybobama, you are suggesting that before governments individual family units made 100% of everything they needed to survive and traded nothing with other families?

Nonetheless, auto is right and your argument is a red herring. I'm merely answering it so you'll address the points instead of copy-pasting the same post over and over (4 posts with substantially the same content that I counted).

[xyzer]

Well put auto..

Equivocation. In the phrase "free market" the word "free" is synonymous with "unrestrained". On the other hand, in "nothing is free", "free" is synonymous with "effortless" and "without sacrifice" (including the sacrifice of something you currently own). Obviously, these two meanings of the word "free" are disparate.

billybob..quit using the illogical 'universal affirmatives and negatives' like "never"! Thats why you crashed when someone mentioned the 'black market' as a free market that exists?

[MachineCode0110]

Quote by: Alive Why don't you bring them with you?

Their friends all live here.

I won't be moving to another state let alone another country any time soon.



And on top of that, Somalia has a government again. The US made sure of that.

[billybobama]

Quote by: MachineCode0110 Somalia had no government for a good deal of the 90s and early 2000s. Therefore, there couldn't have been any government regulations. Therefore, it was a free market. It's really not that hard.

Okay, let's see. No governemet = No security. So the guy with the most guns and most strong men just killed their competitors and then charged what they wanted. This does not sound like a FREE MARKET to me. I guess you live in some fantasy world where greedy people do not kill and destroy for money. Just look at the Fascist Bush Crime Family.

[billybobama]

Quote by: xyzer Well put auto.. billybob..quit using the illogical 'universal affirmatives and negatives' like "never"! Thats why you crashed when someone mentioned the 'black market' as a free market that exists?

Like I said, show me just 1 FREE MARKET that has ever existed in the history of mankind, just 1. So far nobody has. Black Markets are not FREE MARKETS. Black Markets are by definition illegal market, therefore no controls. Therefore the people with the most guns and strong men control certain Black Markets, prices and supply. I will give you 3 great examples. 1) Prohibition. 2) Illegal Abortions. 3) The War on Drugs. Definitely not FREE MARKETS. If you do not believe me just try and go sell some drugs in someone elses territory, see how long you last.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: billybobama Like I said, show me just 1 FREE MARKET that has ever existed in the history of mankind, just 1. So far nobody has. Black Markets are not FREE MARKETS. Black Markets are by definition illegal market, therefore no controls. Therefore the people with the most guns and strong men control certain Black Markets, prices and supply. I will give you 3 great examples. 1) Prohibition. 2) Illegal Abortions. 3) The War on Drugs. Definitely not FREE MARKETS. If you do not believe me just try and go sell some drugs in someone elses territory, see how long you last.

Apparently your definition of "free market" is not the definition of the dominant paradigm. Why not enlighten us with your definition of the "free market" so that we can tell where you're coming from?

[billybobama]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Apparently your definition of "free market" is not the definition of the dominant paradigm. Why not enlighten us with your definition of the "free market" so that we can tell where you're coming from?

It is very simple. A "free market" is where everybody can carry on trade without any obstruction. This is a dream and a fantasy. It has never existed and will never exist. There will always be somebody trying to control, manipulate, gain advantage where trade and money are involved. It is called human greed, avarice. (look the word up) This is reality.

[MachineCode0110]

Quote by: billybobama So the guy with the most guns and most strong men just killed their competitors and then charged what they wanted. This does not sound like a FREE MARKET to me.

"The guy" won't make a single dollar by charging whatever he wants.


A free market, such as Somalia during that time, is governed only by supply and demand.


At a high enough price, quantity demanded is zero.

[Ibn_Sina]

To put it bluntly, 'free market economics helping everyone' is a myth. First world countries end up richer at the end of the day. I mean, although USA keeps on saying that free market is the best thing since cool drinks, US government has always played an influential role in her own economy, which ensured that domestic competition between corporations does not badly affect US economy as well as protected her own farmers, businessmen from foreign competitions.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: billybobama It is very simple. A "free market" is where everybody can carry on trade without any obstruction. This is a dream and a fantasy. It has never existed and will never exist. There will always be somebody trying to control, manipulate, gain advantage where trade and money are involved. It is called human greed, avarice. (look the word up) This is reality.

Your definition of a free market is so completely outside of the dominant paradigm that you cannot possibly debate the topic rationally. Go get an economics book and read the chapter where "free market" is defined, and then come back here and retract your statement that there can never be one.

"Free market" means free of government interference. What you are describing is not the definition of a free market.

[billybobama]

Quote by: MachineCode0110 "The guy" won't make a single dollar by charging whatever he wants. A free market, such as Somalia during that time, is governed only by supply and demand. At a high enough price, quantity demanded is zero.

You have no argument. Just stupid opinions that you cannot back up.

[billybobama]

Quote by: tivodan1116 Your definition of a free market is so completely outside of the dominant paradigm that you cannot possibly debate the topic rationally. Go get an economics book and read the chapter where "free market" is defined, and then come back here and retract your statement that there can never be one. "Free market" means free of government interference. What you are describing is not the definition of a free market.

1) No market is free from Government control. Show me just 1. I keep asking this question and nobody can answer.
2) If there is no Government control then there is criminal control.
3) No matter which you choose a FREE MARKET does not exist.
I asked for facts and examples, all I get are opinions and fantasy.

[MachineCode0110]

Quote by: billybobama You have no argument. Just stupid opinions that you cannot back up.

The laws of supply and demand back me up.

[tivodan1116]

Quote by: billybobama 1) No market is free from Government control. Show me just 1. I keep asking this question and nobody can answer.

Many markets are free from government control. Osborn gave you one example which I repeated: the black market.
I gave you another: pre-government trading in historic times.

You keep SAYING no one can answer because when we do answer, you change the definition of free market.

There are several markets free from government control.

2) If there is no Government control then there is criminal control.

• perhaps in the black market, but not in the ancient pre-government markets.
• This is not the definition of "free market". Free market means free from government control and has nothing to do with criminality.

3) No matter which you choose a FREE MARKET does not exist. I asked for facts and examples, all I get are opinions and fantasy.

No, you get facts and perfectly good answers to your questions, and then you change the questions.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: billybobama 1) No market is free from Government control. Show me just 1. I keep asking this question and nobody can answer. 2) If there is no Government control then there is criminal control. 3) No matter which you choose a FREE MARKET does not exist. I asked for facts and examples, all I get are opinions and fantasy.

Can you explain for the rest of us what you mean by "government control" and "criminal control"?

- Rob

[Autolykos]

Quote by: billybobama It is very simple. A "free market" is where everybody can carry on trade without any obstruction. This is a dream and a fantasy. It has never existed and will never exist. There will always be somebody trying to control, manipulate, gain advantage where trade and money are involved.

Most people's idea of "free market" does not in any way obviate the possibility of somebody try to "control, manipulate, [or otherwise] gain advantage". Indeed, the whole point of economic activity is to try to gain an advantage for oneself. What do you think trade is? Prior to a trade, each person wants what the other has more than what he has himself. That's what drives the exchange. Each person will think himself better off (i.e. gain advantage) after he exchanges what he has for what the other has.

On the subject of control, I consider it impossible for one person to control anyone else, i.e. take anyone else's will as his own. While people often try to control other people anyway, their efforts always end in failure.

It is called human greed, avarice. (look the word up) This is reality.

You are correct that this is reality. But what's your point?

- Rob

[billybobama]

Quote by: Autolykos Most people's idea of "free market" does not in any way obviate the possibility of somebody try to "control, manipulate, [or otherwise] gain advantage". Indeed, the whole point of economic activity is to try to gain an advantage for oneself. What do you think trade is? Prior to a trade, each person wants what the other has more than what he has himself. That's what drives the exchange. Each person will think himself better off (i.e. gain advantage) after he exchanges what he has for what the other has. On the subject of control, I consider it impossible for one person to control anyone else, i.e. take anyone else's will as his own. While people often try to control other people anyway, their efforts always end in failure. You are correct that this is reality. But what's your point? - Rob

The point is Free Markets do not exist, never have existed and never will exist. Free Market is just a fantasy. Back to my original point. Nothing is FREE.