Dad jailed 8 years for 'horrific' sex assault:

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Praxius We haven't learned anything from them thus far keeping them in jail, what more are we gonna learn except that they get a kick out of messing with our heads when we ask them questions?

I'm talking about real concerted research. Not on-staff jailhouse psychologists and grad students both trying to make names for themselves by interviewing high-profile serials. I'm also talking about long term observations, and not merely interviews.

From what I've read, it wasn't that Ted Bundy was really that intelligent (an IQ of 119 or so from what I remember) but that the people attempting to research him were using basic and amateurish tests on him that he, only with a bachelors in Psychology, was more than aware of. This amused him, and he enjoyed toying with these people because he was a narcissist and viewed himself as outwitting individuals who were supposed to be intelligent. What he didn't realize was that they merely were not that intelligent to begin with. At the very least, less so than his, granted above average, but not genius level as depicted in the media, IQ. How else would you be dumb enough to use basic tests taught in introductory courses on someone with a degree in psychology and expect any other reaction than the one they received?

It's like giving a calculus student basic addition homework and be claiming seriously to be attempting to gauge their skill level.

[Rooster]

Why don't we ask the father of Shasta Groene if society has been served by "studying" these people. If Capital Punishment was used on Joseph Duncan during any of the say first 3 times he proved himself a repeat offender, then an entire family would still be alive, happy and productive. A judge, no less, let this man out while a dr posted his bail. How did he repay society for his new freedom and second chance?

Again and again this society of pansy assed, soft hearted, "they can be rehabilitated" thinkers have allowed these type of crimes to be repeated over and over again. If anything the "study" of these inmates have shown up that they are incapable of being allowed back into society. So, why should we continue to support them in prison all the while wasting money and energy.

Its time we change the laws and our way of thinking!

[Chaossaber314]

Why don't we ask the father of Shasta Groene if society has been served by "studying" these people. If Capital Punishment was used on Joseph Duncan during any of the say first 3 times he proved himself a repeat offender, then an entire family would still be alive, happy and productive. A judge, no less, let this man out while a dr posted his bail.

Clearly if he was on the street he wasn't in a locked down psychiatric facility being studied.

Again and again this society of pansy assed, soft hearted, "they can be rehabilitated" thinkers have allowed these type of crimes to be repeated over and over again.

I'm a criminal justice major and a police intern, I know this isn't addressed to me. I never said they could be rehabilitated. My implications were quite the opposite in that they couldn't be rehabilitated and others like them couldn't as well so studying them and trying to really figure out what makes them tick could help us in apprehending and stopping others like them. Not in some miraculous cure.

If anything the "study" of these inmates have shown up that they are incapable of being allowed back into society.

You won't find any argument from me on that one as I never suggested reintegration or anything of the sort.

[smallpox]

Perhaps the reason why people are for capital punishment in some cases, is because the person who is being executed is someone who has already taken at least one life already, or has done enough damage to at least one person that they can not live a normal life, or the life that they might have had prior to the incident..... it's called justice in some countries.... and in some countries.... it doesn't stop or prevent what has already happened, but it eliminated one factor in society which has already proven to be a danger to it.... why allow more chances?

You do realise killing people is unlawful? The government is not above the law.

[smallpox]

BTW, capital punishment is more expensive then life sentences. This is all about revenge isn't it?

[Praxius]

Quote by: Rooster Why don't we ask the father of Shasta Groene if society has been served by "studying" these people. If Capital Punishment was used on Joseph Duncan during any of the say first 3 times he proved himself a repeat offender, then an entire family would still be alive, happy and productive. A judge, no less, let this man out while a dr posted his bail. How did he repay society for his new freedom and second chance? Again and again this society of pansy assed, soft hearted, "they can be rehabilitated" thinkers have allowed these type of crimes to be repeated over and over again. If anything the "study" of these inmates have shown up that they are incapable of being allowed back into society. So, why should we continue to support them in prison all the while wasting money and energy. Its time we change the laws and our way of thinking!

I agree,

Much like our attitudes towards youths commiting crimes. Were being all fearful of throwing them in jail because it'll mess up their development.... well guess what? Letting these people live normal lives like the rest of us apparently didn't work.... so what makes people think that not putting kids in jail to teach them that their actions will not be tollerated won't work any better or worse?

Same with these freaks..... who muder.... who are of adult mentality who can independantly think for themselves..... they get off just as easily as youths for their crimes.... we all think "Oh poor fellow, he had a bad life and that's why he did what he did..... let's give him a lollypop and send a doctor to his or her home once a month to check on them......."

The penalties for crimes seem to have gotten soft as we became futher rotted by over political correctness if you ask me.

The only main problem with capital punishment is IF someone was found guilty for a crime they did not commit.

To me, capital punishment would only be reasonable for those who:

#1- Admitted to the crimes and were proud of them

#2- evidence is not 100% solid towards the criminal in question, but found guilty. Give them the years in jail, and if they seem to have been mixed up in another murder down the road, that would be an interesting coincidence..... time for execution.

[Praxius]

Quote by: smallpox BTW, capital punishment is more expensive then life sentences. This is all about revenge isn't it?

I don't see the reason for it to be.... how much for one assault rifle assigned for the executions? How much for four rounds of amunition per criminal? 10-15 bucks an hour for the gaurds..... haul the bastard out to the side of the prison wall.... three round in the chest, one in the head..... wow..... economic if you ask me, compared to giving them room and board every year of their lives.

"Oh but an execution must be humane without suffering"

Do you think they cared about the suffering of those they killed? How long did those victims suffer? Why should we treat them any better? Death isn't suppose to be the easiest, humane thing to do..... it's death.... and besides, they're only going to have to go through the suffering once.... and then they're dead.

All this hanging, gas chamber, leathal injection, electric chair BS is just that.... BS.... all cost a pretty penny to do.... all are suppose to make quick deaths..... but when they don't and they fail.... and the prisoner suffers, everybody starts to get all petty and sad worrying about the guys suffering..... Hand me the axe, I'll lop off his head for ya..... *chop* there done.... get over yourselves.... he's dead.

Lop their heads off like the old days, or four rounds of amunition..... pretty simple.....

But if you want a very economic solution: Chuck their asses off a rocky shoreline cliff..... very economical and enviromentally friendly.... as he goes back to nature, the fish and birds eat them..... no burial.... simple and effective and it expresses the same amount of care as they expressed when murdering those they did.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Praxius All this hanging, gas chamber, leathal injection, electric chair BS is just that.... BS.... all cost a pretty penny to do....

No, they really don't cost that much. It's the guaranteed appeals process in the states that eats up so much money. That's why capital punishment costs more. Not because of the act, but the requirements of our society.

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: ZNFYRH And some people think he has a right to live his life. I think about my 2-year old daughter and I can't even wrap my mind around the kind of person you have to be to do that to a child. I would kill him on principle.

Murder is wrong, no matter who do it, or why.

Quote by: ladyphoenix Oh, I believe he has every right to live his life... without certain appendages unique to the male anatomy.

Well, one of the US amendments speak out against harsh and unusual punishment. Lock him up, but in jail, who could he harm with those "special parts"?

However 8 years is in no way enough. Raping your own daughter like that... Oh my f***king god..

Quote by: ZNFYRH I think he should be raped severely to the point of needing surgery to repair his internal injuries.

Wouldn't that make you as bad as him?

Quote by: ZNFYRH And it should be done by someone 3 times his height and 6 times his weight. Let the punishment fit the crime.

So if you steal something, the government hires someone to nick your TV?

Quote by: Praxius As it goes for this guy.... he's just one more freak to add onto the pile of those who prey on children.... one more person who posses serious risk and should be either delt with in a sever manner for his own learning of lessons, or even worse... made an extreme example out of.... and I like examples being made out of people..... it's a very effective way of getting the message across.

Examples never did anything good. Also, he most likely didn't "prey". He is a seriously depraved bastard, but i would say alcohol played a large part in this. Most offenders aren't fixated, but regressed. Meaning he most likely just did the nearest thing. Not that that's in any way an excuse.

Quote by: Praxius I say shove a baseball bat up his ass coated in lemon juice and shards of glass. Stick the freak out in the middle of downtown, ram him real good with the bat and then yank the thing out and shake it at the crowd screaming "DON'T DO WHAT HE DID OR THIS WILL BE YOU!!!! GOT IT!!!!" I'm pretty sure that might get across to a few. (Whoever said Canadians were nice?)

Read above.

And i try to avoid all sorts of stereotypes, even the "positive" ones.


As for the 8 year Punishment... Such horrific assaults should be punished much more severely, and especially so with one's own daughter. Perhaps an extra 15% for being such a lousy fucking parent...

[ZNFYRH]

Maybe-not

To answer each of your questions in order:

Murder is wrong, no matter who do it, or why.

Your comment about murder is ignorant and dismissive. I can think of more than a dozen acts right now off the top of my head that would instigate murder. The first one is self-defense. So let's stick to that one.

Would you murder in self-defense? Well then there's just one instance, thus negating your "no matter... why".

Wouldn't that make you as bad as him?

No. My moral code has a space in it for retribution and justice.

So if you steal something, the government hires someone to nick your TV?

I'll suppress the obvious dig at the immaturity of that response and instead say this:

No. If you steal something, you should lose the value of what you stole from your own assets.

So along those same lines, viciously rape the man with no regard for his survival.

[Chris]

Quote by: Maybe-not Examples never did anything good. Also, he most likely didn't "prey". He is a seriously depraved bastard, but i would say alcohol played a large part in this. Most offenders aren't fixated, but regressed. Meaning he most likely just did the nearest thing. Not that that's in any way an excuse.

I would say: Bullcrap.

Alcohol isnt enough to possess someone to rape a 2 year old. No amount of alcohol would make a person even want to think about doing that to a 2 year old.

The dude is mental. Alcohol has nothing to do with it, and blaming it on alcohol is cheap ans weak.

[ladyphoenix]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Your comment about murder is ignorant and dismissive. I can think of more than a dozen acts right now off the top of my head that would instigate murder. The first one is self-defense. So let's stick to that one. Would you murder in self-defense? Well then there's just one instance, thus negating your "no matter... why".

It's my understanding that murder is an unlawful killing. Self-defense is lawful, and therefore would not be considered murder.

[ZNFYRH]

ladyphoenix

I agree with you, but when someone speaks in absolutes I will point out that taking a life is taking a life, regardless of the circumstances.

[Praxius]

Quote by: Maybe-not Murder is wrong, no matter who do it, or why.

Uh huh..... so why let those who murder continue to live and allow them further chance to murder again?

Well, one of the US amendments speak out against harsh and unusual punishment. Lock him up, but in jail, who could he harm with those "special parts"?

Depends if he's the prison bitch or the prison bitchet.

Wouldn't that make you as bad as him?

Eye for an eye.... equal out the justice? No..... he's the one to instigated the situation.... he's the one who committed the crime, his child is in no position to seek out her own justice, I'd say it would be acceptable to balance the injustice. He would then understand exactly how it felt for his daughter, he'd understand a little bit of what his daughter went through, and perhaps he might learn something, rather then executing him.

Even if he just goes to jail, it's not gonna teach him anything.... he's got a roof over his head, free meals, other criminals to brag about his crime..... he got off scott free if you ask me... and for only 8 years?

This isn't just about revenge, this is about stepping up to the injustices in this world, this is about putting a foot down to say that we will no longer accept this bullshat that's going on in the world.... our current laws are most certainly not stopping them..... they are not learning that it's wrong..... so step it up.... make examples and express that we don't accept this kind of behavior.

So if you steal something, the government hires someone to nick your TV?

I guess logically that sounds fair to me.

Examples never did anything good. Also, he most likely didn't "prey". He is a seriously depraved bastard, but i would say alcohol played a large part in this. Most offenders aren't fixated, but regressed. Meaning he most likely just did the nearest thing. Not that that's in any way an excuse.

That's another thing.... too many idiots in the world try to put the responsibility for their own actions onto something else besides themselves.... to justify or excuse what they did...... this is crap, and needs to stop..... where does one draw the line of where their responsibility lies? When he decided to drink? After he decided to drink? When he got drunk? Before he decided to rape his daughter? It's all related to his own decisions and actions and he should be held responsible for his own actions by the highest regard.

Examples do all kinds of good..... it's how we can learn from history. Examples were made out of the leaders captured during WWII, to make it clear the world would not accept that kind of war again.... Examples were made out of Saddam and his men..... examples are made everyday..... examples are used everyday throughout history...... why not in crimes?

Right now all we got is someone commits a crime, they goto jail, we hear a bit in the news, and then they're fogotten about until they return from jail. There isn't anything there that hits close to home.... nothing that teaches that it is absolutely unacepptable.

[Rooster]

I dont think these type of people should be in a psych hospital. Why should our tax money be used to pay for the care of these type of individuals? There are plenty of well deserving, seriously ill people who need assistance in paying for their medical care, whether it be mental or physical. Some are homeless people who have fallen thru the cracks.

Instead the government chooses to spend its resources providing for the likes of Joseph Duncan & Alfonso Rodriguez. Where does it end?

Executions are simple, inexpensive and put an end to the terror these people inflicted on society. The number of innocent people on death row are minimal compared to the guilty ones. Give the inmates one appeal and one chance then hang them. A rope is around $30 at any hardware store and a tall tree is free. Once chance and one appeal is a heck of alot more than they gave their victims.

Praxius said: But if you want a very economic solution: Chuck their asses off a rocky shoreline cliff..... very economical and enviromentally friendly.... as he goes back to nature, the fish and birds eat them..... no burial.... simple and effective and it expresses the same amount of care as they expressed when murdering those they did.

Great Idea

[Chaossaber314]

I dont think these type of people should be in a psych hospital. Why should our tax money be used to pay for the care of these type of individuals? There are plenty of well deserving, seriously ill people who need assistance in paying for their medical care, whether it be mental or physical.

If these well deserving people could be actively studied so we can help better understand violent offenders, by all means. Joking aside, you're thinking extremely simplistically and not reading what I've been saying.

[Praxius]

Studying them imo.... is just going to make one more "Mental Illness" for all of us to accept and one more excuse for them to do what they do..... one more responsibility taken off their shoulders and put on some faceless scientific excuse.

Regardless if we find some reason for them doing what they do or not.... we'll identify it, and they will continue to do it..... if you can't live in a society where people don't kill each other on a daily basis, then why try and pamper them to fit in our society?

They know what they are doing is wrong, I know what is wrong, you know what is wrong, everybody knows what we deem as wrong or not..... you're taught this as a child..... they were taught this as a child..... the only mentality that you have to concern yourself with someone who murders and rapes, is that they think they can get away with it with some excuse that made them do it.... plain and simple..... you don't need to study them, you don't need to test them.... that's all there is to it..... eventually they just say fok it and they do it..... then they panic and try and think of a way to get out of what they did.

Severe Diaper Rash? Alcohol made me do it? You looked like your Mother??

Seriously.... fok that..... shoot the fokker in the brains and get it over with. They want to play games with societies laws, we'll show them otherwise. It's a dam sympathy case is what it is.... just like that teenager who killed her family with her boyfriend and then tried to pin it all on her boyfriend out of sympathy........ I'm not that stupid and neither was the Judge and Jury.

[ZNFYRH]

Praxius

It's even simpler than that, and you mention the core of it.

Viciously raping a 2 year old is wrong.

That means one of two things for the perpetrator:

1. They knew it was wrong.
2. They didn't know it was wrong.

If 1, then they chose to do the crime. This is compounded by the fact that it's his own daughter. If someone chooses to violently rape their own daughter and they are fully aware that it is wrong, they don't belong in any society.

If 2, then they didn't know any better. This is strange, since he was in his twenties and apparently functioned that long in society. If he hadn't learned by then, especially with his own daughter, he's not going to learn it any time soon. So he still doesn't belong in any society.

I think it's number 1.

I think that because he lied to doctors. Lying is a sign of intent and avoidance.

[Rooster]

They do it because they can and because they think they can beat the system. They do not have a conscience, compassion or sympathy. When they are caught they fabricate excuses. The sad thing is, some people buy into these excuses!

They do not deserve to live or to die w/compassion!

[Maybe-not]

Quote by: ZNFYRH Maybe-not Your comment about murder is ignorant and dismissive. I can think of more than a dozen acts right now off the top of my head that would instigate murder. The first one is self-defense. So let's stick to that one. Would you murder in self-defense? Well then there's just one instance, thus negating your "no matter... why".!

I would. Self-defence isn't murder. Murder is destroying life, self-defense is preserving it

Quote by: ZNFYRH No. If you steal something, you should lose the value of what you stole from your own assets. So along those same lines, viciously rape the man with no regard for his survival.

...

Okay, in that case, should we rape the..

Whatever you call a professionals rapist?

Quote by: Chris Alcohol isnt enough to possess someone to rape a 2 year old. No amount of alcohol would make a person even want to think about doing that to a 2 year old. The dude is mental. Alcohol has nothing to do with it, and blaming it on alcohol is cheap ans weak.

He was mental no question. The right combination if stupidity, insanity, and alcohol can make him do something as sick as that. However, that does not make him a pedophile.

Quote by: Praxius Uh huh..... so why let those who murder continue to live and allow them further chance to murder again?

Keep them in prisons, until we can assure they don't harm the rest of society.

Quote by: Praxius Even if he just goes to jail, it's not gonna teach him anything.... he's got a roof over his head, free meals, other criminals to brag about his crime..... he got off scott free if you ask me... and for only 8 years?

I agree that 8 years in in no way enough. Perhaps 16 or 20 would be more appropriate.

Quote by: Praxius This isn't just about revenge, this is about stepping up to the injustices in this world, this is about putting a foot down to say that we will no longer accept this bullshat that's going on in the world.... our current laws are most certainly not stopping them..... they are not learning that it's wrong..... so step it up.... make examples and express that we don't accept this kind of behavior.

I agree.

[quote=Praxius;409832]
Examples do all kinds of good..... it's how we can learn from history. Examples were made out of the leaders captured during WWII, to make it clear the world would not accept that kind of war again.... Examples were made out of Saddam and his men..... examples are made everyday..... examples are used everyday throughout history...... why not in crimes?[quote=Praxius;409832]

Interesting part is these examples don't seem to scare anyone. Absolutely destroying Germany after WW2 didn't stop the idea's of Racism. They trived in America, in fact. "Back of the buss" with blacks, and actuall KZ camps for the japanese. And the state of Israel live in Zionist-Nazism to this day, supported by the very same allies that orriginaly made the example out of the German leaders and population.

Quote by: Rooster I dont think these type of people should be in a psych hospital. Why should our tax money be used to pay for the care of these type of individuals? There are plenty of well deserving, seriously ill people who need assistance in paying for their medical care, whether it be mental or physical. Some are homeless people who have fallen thru the cracks.

And that's why we need a planned economy. That way we can care for everybody.