Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

shawmutt · Jul 11, 2007, 04:45 pm

I know there's a post about this in the religious forum, but this isn't about religious beliefs.

My wife is due in two months, and we found out we're having a boy. One of the important discussions we had was on circumcision. She belongs to a baby forum, and mere mention of the word results in 10 pages of posts. The problem is that there's a lot of residual garbage science, anecdotal evidence, and old wives' tales circulating around the Internet.

One issue brought up is religion. I was born and raised Baptist, and was circumcised as an infant. However, I have since left the Christian church, and as a UU, I have no need to force a ritual on my son because a book says so. The way I see it, if my boy grows up and decides on a religion which requires circumcision he can have it done at that point. I have been accused of "copping out" and told that at an older age it's a major painful surgery. I feel that it should be a big deal.

Another issue brought up is that he'll look different than me. I don't see this as a big deal, but I wonder often how it will effect my boy.

Yet another issue is cleanliness. I have yet to find solid evidence either way. From what I understand, as long as he's taught how to keep it clean (which is a task I'm not sure how I'll undertake, but that's a different post) an uncircumcised penis is actually cleaner.

As you may be able to infer from my post, I'm already a proud poppa, and I want what's best for my son. I did a lot of research before coming to the conclusion that he's not being circumcised at birth. My wife thankfully agreed with my opinion, and it is no longer an issue between us. I'm just wondering what your opinion is on it.

**Jason** · Jul 11, 2007, 04:49 pm

My administrative (:)) opinion: Circumcise.

Appearance: Many women find an uncircumcised penis unattractive and/or gross
Cleanliness: An uncircumcised penis is harder to take care of and can become infected easier
Health: Circumcision helps prevent the transmission of HIV and other diseases, although there is some controversy over these scientific findings
Religion: No religion (that I know of) forbids circumcision. For some, however, it is a requirement. Delaying it only means money, pain and stress.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 11, 2007, 05:00 pm

The infection and STD part I clearly understand: the foreskin is easily cut which provides an easy way for pathogens to enter the body. That's relevant in places like Africa. Not as much here where condoms are given away for free.

But keeping it clean? Women finding it unattractive?

1000s of generations before us have had foreskins and women found it within themselves to ignore the supposed uncleanliness and unattractiveness of it. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here.

If the mother of my boy insists that he be circumcised at birth, I'll be fine with that.

If the decision was placed solely on my shoulders, I would say no circumcision. I feel that when all other things are equal, it's better to go the natural route.

shawmutt · Jul 11, 2007, 05:05 pm

Quote:

Appearance: Many women find an uncircumcised penis unattractive and/or gross

This is purely cultural bias. With circumcision being made more of an option these days, and more parents opting out, do you think the uncircumcised penis will become more culturally acceptable?

Quote:

Cleanliness: An uncircumcised penis is harder to take care of and can become infected easier

While I agree in essence, let's put this in perspective. From what I read, washing an uncircumcised penis is a tiny bit involved and takes an extra couple seconds to pull the foreskin back and wash. Additionally, what does infected "easier" actually mean? I'm assuming by an infection you are referring to UTIs. Here is an interesting article on the subject: Altschul: The Circ/UTI Controversy

Quote:

Health: Circumcision helps prevent the transmission of HIV and other diseases, although there is some controversy over these scientific findings

Now, I have read studies that say the opposite. The uncircumcized penis actually protects against STDs. More popular is the opinion that there is no difference. Male Circumcision and STD

SoylentGreen · Jul 11, 2007, 05:07 pm

Apperently there is a problem that occurs with some males that when they are aduts the foreskin does not grow correctly and when they get an erection this can cause bleeding.
It happened to a friend of mine and he was advised to get circumcised.
From his claim it is not a major or painful surgery except for the size and placing of the needle that gives a local anesthetic. That he found quite scary.
It was also his misfortune to have a doctor and nurses who thought that humour and wit on their part would be a calming influence. But according to him penis jokes don't help.
I think if you feel it should be done its better done when they are a baby as the operation dos not lend itself to any dignity when an adult.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 11, 2007, 07:14 pm

I think I've heard too that some women prefer sex with an uncircumcised penis.

Any women care to comment?

SoylentGreen · Jul 11, 2007, 07:37 pm

Quote:

I think I've heard too that some women prefer sex with an uncircumcised penis.
Any women care to comment?

And just to be fair would any homosexuals care to comment

Frasier · Jul 11, 2007, 09:08 pm

How would homosexuals know what women prefer?

On a serious note, I would suggest that circumcision is unnecessary medically speaking. I know it's much more popular in the USA than it is in the UK, so maybe that's why this is a bigger issue, but in the UK circumcision is only really done because of religious reasons, or if there is a slight problem at birth that can easily be rectified by circumcision.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 11, 2007, 09:12 pm

I'm sure the tradition in the US has a religious foundation.

As religion is set aside in favor of science, I feel we'll gradually shift to a mostly uncircumcised population.

banko · Jul 11, 2007, 11:24 pm

Don't do it.
Apperance isn't a great reason this isn't about what women are looking for in a penis, this is about your sons penis. As for the difference between you and him I am sure if you explain it to him why the difference he won't have a problem. As for STD's and such, if he takes care of himself and I don't just mean using soap in the shower but if he is careful of who he has sex with that will eliminate the problem.

Bottom line is that the baby will feel pain during and after the procedure. There are risks of deforming the penis, or injuring the penis during the circumcision. As for the religion aspect, well that is something that you will have to decide for you. I mean if you raise him a UU then perhaps he will be very spiritual but not a christian.
The foreskin is there for a reason leave it natural.

BTW, I too am circ'd and when I have a son he won't be. Also I will have to dig these stats up but the trend now is decreasing numbers of boys are circed - less than 40% globally and here in Canada I think the number is around 17-24% of boys are circ'd so it isn't like he will be the freak in his gym change room.

gallo · Jul 12, 2007, 12:05 am

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

My administrative (:)) opinion: Circumcise.

Appearance: Many women find an uncircumcised penis unattractive and/or gross

However, I think that most don't.

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

Cleanliness: An uncircumcised penis is harder to take care of and can become infected easier

True. Not only bacterial infections under the foreskin, but Urinary Tract Infections are more common among uncircumcised men, although there aren't any guarantees. Moreover, cancer of the penis is also more common among the uncircumcised as well as cervical cancer among wives of uncircumcised.

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

Health: Circumcision helps prevent the transmission of HIV and other diseases, although there is some controversy over these scientific findings

I've never heard that.

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

Religion: No religion (that I know of) forbids circumcision. For some, however, it is a requirement. Delaying it only means money, pain and stress.

Actually, I wonder about a religion that is concerned about whether or not I have a foreskin.

Anybody wonder why, if a foreskin seems to be such a disadvantage, we have them? Wouldn't they be an evolutionary disadvantage?

another day · Jul 12, 2007, 12:07 am

The only reason western women might find an uncircumcised penis unattractive is because they are not used to it...

Besides, over time the foreskin gets pulled down anyways and it looks a lot like a circumcised penis..at least mine does.

And you don't need lube to masturbate or get a hand job with an uncircumcised penis.

**Jason** · Jul 12, 2007, 12:15 am

Quote:

Quote by: gallo

Actually, I wonder about a religion that is concerned about whether or not I have a foreskin.

That goes back to the tradition started by Abraham, the first Jew. He circumcised himself and Jews continued doing it ever since.

gallo · Jul 12, 2007, 12:57 am

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

That goes back to the tradition started by Abraham, the first Jew. He circumcised himself and Jews continued doing it ever since.

I'm quite aware of that. But that wasn't what I was wondering about.

I said that I wondered about any religion that was concerned with whether or not I had a foreskin. Perhaps I should have said that I wonder about any god who has such concerns. And it isn't just a tradition. It is a required in Judaism, and normal and expected in Islam.

So how does the condition of my penis have any relevance to some god? In other words, why is god worried about my penis? It seems a trivial and unseemly worry for an omnipotent being. So god requires penile mutilation before he/she/it will accept worship? It seems bizarre. But, on the other hand, most religions seem bizarre to me.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 12, 2007, 10:01 am

Quote:

Quote by: another day

And you don't need lube to masturbate or get a hand job with an uncircumcised penis.

I don't need lube and I'm circumcised.

I suppose they could've taken less of my foreskin than average.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 12, 2007, 10:03 am

Quote:

Quote by: gallo

Anybody wonder why, if a foreskin seems to be such a disadvantage, we have them? Wouldn't they be an evolutionary disadvantage?

Obviously they aren't.

Uncircumcised men are surviving long enough to have babies.

And the thing is, even if there's a tiny, itty bitty discrepancy, it will show over time. For example, wisdom teeth are slowly disappearing.

But I don't think any babies are being born without foreskins.

Crimsonking · Jul 12, 2007, 02:34 pm

Personally I am circumcised (just so everyone can see my bias).
I think it is much more convenient, and make things easier for everyone, and there is a chance that the child will change to a religion that requires circumcision, which is a major procedure later in life, so it could be a good idea to nip that problem in the bud.
I have had no problems needing lubrication or anything like that, so I don't believe that aspect, nor have I ever had any infection of any type. As far as the women aspect go, everyone who has seen my penis has been relieved, since whether the truth or not, most people feel that a circumcised penis is cleaner than an uncircumcised one.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 12, 2007, 03:03 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Crimsonking

there is a chance that the child will change to a religion that requires circumcision, which is a major procedure later in life, so it could be a good idea to nip that problem in the bud.

Isn't there also a chance that the child won't ever been in a religion that requires circumcision?

Do people not believe in allowing someone to choose for themselves anymore? Is that just old fashioned?

**Jason** · Jul 12, 2007, 04:04 pm

This isn't like going to get your ears pierced. Circumcision isn't a procedure an adult endures because he "feels like it" or because it "might be nice". We're comparing an easy, unmemorable, possibly advantageous, no-consequences action near birth to a more difficult, memorable, possibly required action later in life.

No significant cons vs. potential cons. Weigh it.

MachineCode0110 · Jul 12, 2007, 04:17 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Jason

No significant cons

If that were the case, this thread would not exist.

Come on now.

Jul 11, 2007, 04:45 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
shawmutt Slightly Dangerous Location: Greencastle, PA Posts: 1,093	Circumcision I know there's a post about this in the religious forum, but this isn't about religious beliefs. My wife is due in two months, and we found out we're having a boy. One of the important discussions we had was on circumcision. She belongs to a baby forum, and mere mention of the word results in 10 pages of posts. The problem is that there's a lot of residual garbage science, anecdotal evidence, and old wives' tales circulating around the Internet. One issue brought up is religion. I was born and raised Baptist, and was circumcised as an infant. However, I have since left the Christian church, and as a UU, I have no need to force a ritual on my son because a book says so. The way I see it, if my boy grows up and decides on a religion which requires circumcision he can have it done at that point. I have been accused of "copping out" and told that at an older age it's a major painful surgery. I feel that it should be a big deal. Another issue brought up is that he'll look different than me. I don't see this as a big deal, but I wonder often how it will effect my boy. Yet another issue is cleanliness. I have yet to find solid evidence either way. From what I understand, as long as he's taught how to keep it clean (which is a task I'm not sure how I'll undertake, but that's a different post) an uncircumcised penis is actually cleaner. As you may be able to infer from my post, I'm already a proud poppa, and I want what's best for my son. I did a lot of research before coming to the conclusion that he's not being circumcised at birth. My wife thankfully agreed with my opinion, and it is no longer an issue between us. I'm just wondering what your opinion is on it. 78% of statistics are made up on the spot. Shawmutt.com. My Blog and Pictures of the Massively Multiplayer Offline game, Real Life.

Jul 11, 2007, 04:49 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Jason hyggeligt life Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,835	My administrative (:)) opinion: Circumcise. Appearance: Many women find an uncircumcised penis unattractive and/or gross Cleanliness: An uncircumcised penis is harder to take care of and can become infected easier Health: Circumcision helps prevent the transmission of HIV and other diseases, although there is some controversy over these scientific findings Religion: No religion (that I know of) forbids circumcision. For some, however, it is a requirement. Delaying it only means money, pain and stress. Read the rules. Please show your appreciation by donating.

Jul 11, 2007, 11:24 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
banko Igneous Magma Posts: 226	Don't do it. Apperance isn't a great reason this isn't about what women are looking for in a penis, this is about your sons penis. As for the difference between you and him I am sure if you explain it to him why the difference he won't have a problem. As for STD's and such, if he takes care of himself and I don't just mean using soap in the shower but if he is careful of who he has sex with that will eliminate the problem. Bottom line is that the baby will feel pain during and after the procedure. There are risks of deforming the penis, or injuring the penis during the circumcision. As for the religion aspect, well that is something that you will have to decide for you. I mean if you raise him a UU then perhaps he will be very spiritual but not a christian. The foreskin is there for a reason leave it natural. BTW, I too am circ'd and when I have a son he won't be. Also I will have to dig these stats up but the trend now is decreasing numbers of boys are circed - less than 40% globally and here in Canada I think the number is around 17-24% of boys are circ'd so it isn't like he will be the freak in his gym change room. For every man who lives without freedom, the rest of us must face the guilt ---Lillian Hellman, The Watch on the Rhine, 1941

Jul 12, 2007, 04:04 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Jason hyggeligt life Location: Houston, TX Posts: 2,835	This isn't like going to get your ears pierced. Circumcision isn't a procedure an adult endures because he "feels like it" or because it "might be nice". We're comparing an easy, unmemorable, possibly advantageous, no-consequences action near birth to a more difficult, memorable, possibly required action later in life. No significant cons vs. potential cons. Weigh it. Read the rules. Please show your appreciation by donating.

Jul 11, 2007, 05:00 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	The infection and STD part I clearly understand: the foreskin is easily cut which provides an easy way for pathogens to enter the body. That's relevant in places like Africa. Not as much here where condoms are given away for free. But keeping it clean? Women finding it unattractive? 1000s of generations before us have had foreskins and women found it within themselves to ignore the supposed uncleanliness and unattractiveness of it. Otherwise, we wouldn't be here. If the mother of my boy insists that he be circumcised at birth, I'll be fine with that. If the decision was placed solely on my shoulders, I would say no circumcision. I feel that when all other things are equal, it's better to go the natural route.

Jul 11, 2007, 05:07 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
SoylentGreen Volcanic Erupter Posts: 2,630	Apperently there is a problem that occurs with some males that when they are aduts the foreskin does not grow correctly and when they get an erection this can cause bleeding. It happened to a friend of mine and he was advised to get circumcised. From his claim it is not a major or painful surgery except for the size and placing of the needle that gives a local anesthetic. That he found quite scary. It was also his misfortune to have a doctor and nurses who thought that humour and wit on their part would be a calming influence. But according to him penis jokes don't help. I think if you feel it should be done its better done when they are a baby as the operation dos not lend itself to any dignity when an adult.

Jul 11, 2007, 07:14 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	I think I've heard too that some women prefer sex with an uncircumcised penis. Any women care to comment?

Jul 11, 2007, 09:08 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Frasier Molten Ash Posts: 99	How would homosexuals know what women prefer? On a serious note, I would suggest that circumcision is unnecessary medically speaking. I know it's much more popular in the USA than it is in the UK, so maybe that's why this is a bigger issue, but in the UK circumcision is only really done because of religious reasons, or if there is a slight problem at birth that can easily be rectified by circumcision.

Jul 11, 2007, 09:12 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
MachineCode0110 Igneous Magma Posts: 320	I'm sure the tradition in the US has a religious foundation. As religion is set aside in favor of science, I feel we'll gradually shift to a mostly uncircumcised population.

Jul 12, 2007, 12:07 am	#12 (permalink) (top)
another day slipping sand Posts: 1,915	The only reason western women might find an uncircumcised penis unattractive is because they are not used to it... Besides, over time the foreskin gets pulled down anyways and it looks a lot like a circumcised penis..at least mine does. And you don't need lube to masturbate or get a hand job with an uncircumcised penis.

Jul 12, 2007, 02:34 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Crimsonking Molten Ash Posts: 47	Personally I am circumcised (just so everyone can see my bias). I think it is much more convenient, and make things easier for everyone, and there is a chance that the child will change to a religion that requires circumcision, which is a major procedure later in life, so it could be a good idea to nip that problem in the bud. I have had no problems needing lubrication or anything like that, so I don't believe that aspect, nor have I ever had any infection of any type. As far as the women aspect go, everyone who has seen my penis has been relieved, since whether the truth or not, most people feel that a circumcised penis is cleaner than an uncircumcised one.