Should suicide be legal?

[DEEJ85]

I think part of the issue, is that many people who commit suicide do so not because they are terminally ill but because they are depressed.

Apparently many people who do attempt suicide, often report this to a loved one or the police before hand. It almost seems like this is more about trying to get help then them wanting to kill themselves.

How would you distinguish that a person wanting to commit suicide is in the right mind to consent to their own death? Just because a person has a terminal illness does not mean they are now more able to consent.

lets say I have a chemical imbalance which causes me to be depressed all the time. Lets say that my chemical imbalance is so strong that doctors cannot manage to correct it. Since I am suffering with no way out, Do I have the right to end my life, even by assisted suicide?

[Osborn F Enready]

Life is ours individually, and regardless of who we share it with, or how we share it, it is ours to value or de-value as we see it for ourselves, concerning ourselves.

Nobody has the right to prevent suicide, if the person who is attempting the act is in possession of their faculties and expressed their intent to perform the act.

[DEEJ85]

So, if someone perfectly healthy who was reading this forum decided to take their own life, that would be alright?

And therefore we shouldn't try to talk them out of it?

[Osborn F Enready]

DEEJ85 said: So, if someone perfectly healthy who was reading this forum decided to take their own life, that would be alright?

I think it would be allright, and I would have no right to physically STOP them.

DEEJ85 said: And therefore we shouldn't try to talk them out of it?

I didn't say that.

Talking to a person who welcomes the input, is not a matter of force. Forcing someone to listen, is not acceptable.

I think if it is within our power, our reach, we should try to discourage suicide, but we should not allow, condone or use force to prevent it.

[tinybear]

C'mon, the reality is nobody in possession of his/her faculties wants to die unless for a very very good reason. I say let him/her decide.

[Athena]

Quote by: DEEJ85 So, if someone perfectly healthy who was reading this forum decided to take their own life, that would be alright? And therefore we shouldn't try to talk them out of it?

No! Most people who are suicidal are suffering a temporary or treatable pyschological condition.

The difference with assisted suicide is, the person has a deadly disease and will die of this disease or complications of the disease. Now the dying that is in progress can not be stopped, but only guided. How a person chooses to manage these last days, is fully up to the person, and this person's decisions need to be respected. This is a matter of honoring this human being, instead of stripping this person of all dignity and all self control.

[Osborn F Enready]

How about suicide by choice Athena? Do you support that if there is no medical need for "compassion" or "respect" due to pain and or obvious death looming?

[Athena]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy I agree. I have a family history of Alzheimer’s and I'm in a higher risk demographic, so I've thought about the issue in some depth. If I get Alzheimer’s, I would want to live as long as possible, while still maintaining a decent quality of life. But of course, once Alzheimer’s gets to the drastic stage, one may not be in a fit state to end things unaided. Without assisted suicide, one either commits the act too early, or runs the risk of being too late and having to suffer until a natural death occurs. I agree. Although really, as soon as we're born, we've already received our death sentence and it's simply a matter of how long we wish to postpone it. I think suicide should always be up to the individual, regardless of whether they are ill. After all, we're all terminally ill with ageing. Cocaine is a strange choice if you don’t mind me saying so. I’ve seen someone OD on coke, and it didn’t look particularly peaceful. Personally, I would go with something which just puts you to sleep, like potassium cyanide. I work in a chemistry lab, so it wouldn’t be a great deal of trouble to get.

I judge that when we get something like ALS or Alzhiemers or untreatable cancers, we have a good idea how long we can postpone our deaths. We can also have a good idea of what those last days will be like. No one one in the world has the right to make decide how someone else will handle his/her life when the person is working with this kind of information. Fortunately I live in Oregon, and I can make legal agreements with my family and doctor, so I can choose to extend my life, because I can have assisted suicide.

We are close to controlling Alzhiemers disease with a drug that suppresses the chain reaction that destroys the brain. This factor needs to be calcutated into the decision. However, I don't think it will undo the damage already done, so we should have the right to say when things get this bad__________, free me from my body.

I visit a man with ALS every Wednesday, and he is close to the end. He is choosing to stay alive as long as possible, because he is more afraid of death than lying in his bed unable to communicate his needs. His mother left him a nice home, which means the state will allow him as much care as he requires, and the state will recoop the cost when his house is sold. Until he completely looses the ability to speak, he maintains control over his life, by hiring and firing people who are there to meet his every whim. This is completely different from being left in a nursing home with no control over ones live and surrounded with in misery. Personally, I am more afraid of living with the fear of someone lying me down wrong and not being able to communicate that, and will die conscious of my helplessness. That is in the final stages of ALS a person can die slowly of suffication if positioned in the bed incorrectly. The final prossess of dying can be extremely unpleasant, and why go through this when it can be made pleasant?

The conditions in these nursing homes is little better than insane assylms of old. No one should be forced to endure such a purgatory, and the bill falls back on our son's and daughter's causes us to rob from them when we can no longer care for ourselves. And I sure as blazes don't want to put my son or daughter to go through the unpleasantness of caring for me beyond an endurable point. Alzhiemers is not just lost memory, but can also be personality changes that make a person vile and violent. My God, I don't to live like that!

Yes, I need more information on drugs. I wasn't thinking of ODing on cocaine, because I assumed that would be pretty bad. I would like to use it simply because I have been told it produces intense feelings of pleasure. Then use a secondary way for death. However, mixing drugs can cause a problem. I was thinking of carbon dioxide poisoning or helium? I need to check out potassium cyanide. I learned from literature from the Hemlock Society, that you really want to know what you are doing. A rent check could buy a gun, and people can shoot themselves in the head and die very slowing and painfully if it isn't done right. A friend OD'ed on her drugs and stabbed herself to assure her death. Violent deaths are traumatic for others and should be avoided. How we die should be something done with knowledge, not impulsively.

[Athena]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready How about suicide by choice Athena? Do you support that if there is no medical need for "compassion" or "respect" due to pain and or obvious death looming?

I do not support suicide except for medical reasons. That is because of what I know about loss and depression and my personal experiences with being suicidal, and later developed ideas on life and my own life purpose.

A wise man told me counseling suicidal people is not depressing because these people are willing to die for something, they just haven't figured out a better way of achieving their desire. By carefully questioning them, he is able to help them realize what it is they are willing to die for, and a better way of achieving their desire.

[Osborn F Enready]

Athena said: I do not support suicide except for medical reasons.

Why? Do you deny that people own their own bodies, thereby, their own lives?

Athena said: That is because of what I know about loss and depression and my personal experiences with being suicidal, and later developed ideas on life and my own life purpose. A wise man told me counseling suicidal people is not depressing because these people are willing to die for something, they just haven't figured out a better way of achieving their desire. By carefully questioning them, he is able to help them realize what it is they are willing to die for, and a better way of achieving their desire.

Fine and dandy, but what right does that give you, or government, to deny an indivdual the RIGHT to end their own life?

[DEEJ85]

where do we draw the line for reasonable suicide?

If I have a bad case of depression where literally doctors cannot cure it, is it not terminal since I cannot escape it?

And aren't most people who are suffering from terminal illnesses enter depression because they are suffering, are they psychologically able to make properly consenting decision?

[Athena]

Quote by: DEEJ85 where do we draw the line for reasonable suicide? If I have a bad case of depression where literally doctors cannot cure it, is it not terminal since I cannot escape it? And aren't most people who are suffering from terminal illnesses enter depression because they are suffering, are they psychologically able to make properly consenting decision?

Anti depressants are helpful for depressed people, and this includes those who are terminally ill. End of life decisions are made before a person is terminally ill, or anytime after becoming terminally ill and can be changed. In my medical records, it says do not extend my life if I can not expect to be a fully functioning human being. My doctor and family understand where I stand on this. This is simply a pragmatic decision.

Osborn, I have gone through long periods of time praying I would die, and later was very glad I did not die. Now may be this won't be true for everyone, but I would do all in my power to assure everyone had the chance to find out. Only in cases of terminal illness where a time of death is known give or take a few months, am I in faror of controlling for death.

[Athena]

Quote by: 5010 How do they know those are the only options. The diagnosis and/or prognosis could be wrong. They could be unaware of better medical care. The doctor could be unaware of better treatments. They could be in a pessimistic state of mind, thinking things are worse than they are. They could be confused and unable to make sensible judgements. They may have an unrealistic fear of suspected pain and suffering in the future. They may feel vulnerable. They may feel they are a worthless burden or causing anguish on the family, maybe because they are under pressure from others to feel that way or pressure from shortage of resources. And how do you know the request isn't really a cry for help? A study on terminal patients found that the majority had a high will to live and the difference is related to anxiety and social support..

How about after all the hopeful if's are thoroughal checked out and there is no reason to believe things will get any better? When we are confronted with death, we go through 5 stages

Kübler-Ross model - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia The stages are: Denial : The initial stage: "It can't be happening." Anger : "How dare you do this to me?!" (either referring to God, oneself, or anybody perceived, rightly or wrongly, as "responsible") Bargaining : "Just let me live to see my son graduate." Depression : "I'm so sad, why bother with anything?" Acceptance : "I know that I will be in a better place."

However, when we are old and frail, this may not be the case. These people may simply lack the will the live. I work with the elderly. Right now one of my gentlemen has dramatically deteriorated from a year ago.
All he wants to do is sleep and he has lost interest in eating. I wish I could pump him full of anti-depressants and see that turns him around, but that is not my decision to make. I was doing my best to cheer him up and he made it clear he rather be left alone to sleep. This is just one case.

It is sad when an older person is ready to go, and the family will not let go. When my mother got to the stage of accepence she asked for assistance, but my sister wouldn't left go, so my mother endured several months in very low spirits. It would have been so much better to ease her out when she was ready. I have had older people plead for others to accept their dying. Really, others should be more respectful of the desires of the dying person. Some do ask for death for good reasons.

How many people in the study had experience with dying people and spent much time coming to accept death as a part of life?

[texasdave]

tinybear,
You assume that it stops with those who are just physically suffering. Do some research on the Nazis and the beginnings of the holocaust. Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

[5010]

Quote by: Athena How about after all the hopeful if's are thoroughal checked out and there is no reason to believe things will get any better? When we are confronted with death, we go through 5 stages

The study was for patients with no hope for survival. Despite this, a majority of them maintained or regained the will to live their remaining time. Comparing with those who didn't, it was suggested that the process of dying can be made better with treatment for anxiety and social interaction.

Quote by: Athena How many people in the study had experience with dying people and spent much time coming to accept death as a part of life?

I don't think the study recorded how many had prior experience with a dying person. As for 'accept death as a part of life', the study did record spiritual belief and there was a correlation between that and higher will to life. They suggest that the spirituality factor reduces anxiety. Does this mean they accepted death? I don't know, but I figure people who believe in afterlife would be more accepting of death.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: texasdave What will we have next, suicide centers? Will some mother get a phone recording that says, " We're sorry Mrs. X but your daughter Y was in emotional pain and opted to leave this life peacefully at 5 PM today at our downtown center. Could you please come and retrieve the remains as she did not purchase the platinum package that covers burial or cremation, thank you." This a slippery slope and we are fools if we go down it.

Actually, you're using a slippery slope argument, which is pure rhetoric. We're talking about issue 'A', and your talking about a fictional issue 'B' to argue against issue 'A'. This is considered a poor argument. Does lethal injection lead to the compulsory killing of everyone who has committed a crime that isn't petty? No, and arguing against the death penalty by evading the issues associated with it and claiming that it would lead to a new issue, i.e. a Nazi regime, is a flawed way of going about things. Please stick to the issues.

[tinybear]

Quote by: texasdave tinybear, You assume that it stops with those who are just physically suffering. Do some research on the Nazis and the beginnings of the holocaust. Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

Legalizing euthanasia would lead to the rise of another Nazi regime? What are you talking about?

[yourwrong]

Quote by: texasdave tinybear, You assume that it stops with those who are just physically suffering. Do some research on the Nazis and the beginnings of the holocaust. Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

Letting people who are near death kill themselves will not lead to another nazi regime. Thats not the reason the nazi regime got into power. Germany being punished for World War 1 was in turmoil and nearly total anarchy until one party grabbed control the Nazi's by eliminating political opposition and killing anybody that was a threat. It had nothing to do with letting people kill themselves anyways if you knew your history you'd know the disabled were said to be going to a mental instutition for help then were killed. Healthy Germans were never allowed to kill themselves as the Nazi's needed them to serve them and to spread the master race. Also killing the Jews was do to religious prosecution which
a certain group today is doing to muslims. Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

[Jubloz]

Texasdave, there's a pretty big difference between putting someone out of their misery upon request because they are terminal, versus killing someone without their permission and when they're not suspecting it. Not that you have the ability to see the difference.

[Jubloz]

Quote by: texasdave tinybear, You assume that it stops with those who are just physically suffering. Do some research on the Nazis and the beginnings of the holocaust. Those who are ignorant of history are condemned to repeat it.

Aren't you guilty of repeating history by spilling lies to promote your hatred and prejudice under the guise of religion?