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Jun 5, 2004, 03:32 pm

The True Cost of Things

Why Wal-Mart S.U.C.K.S.
(Senseless Uneducated Consumerism Killing Society)
By Richard Baynton, co-founder of Alternatives Magazine

The day Wal-Mart came to town, the townsfolk were downright joyful about it. A huge, brand new, job-providing, property tax paying mega-store planting itself on the edge of the community. And did I mention huge? And amazingly low prices, too! Get the kids! Let’s go shopping!

And they did. Suddenly that $25 widget at the downtown hardware store could be had for a mere $14.95. Incredible! Film developing at the local camera shop was way too expensive now. Prices at the market down the street? Forget about it! Too high compared to the brand new superstore. And the convenience! Food, car batteries, electronics, books, beer, clothes, jewelry, and more, and more, and more… The local unemployed lined up for the new jobs, thrilled at their fresh prospects for a steady paycheck and the self-respect society confers on those with a job. So what if it pays only minimum wage, with minimum benefits . . . it’s a job!

.............................

For the rest of the article, click on the link at the top of this post.

Poetic_Justice · Jun 5, 2004, 06:48 pm

"The last objection—that Wal-Mart helps create "mindless" consumerism—is easily refuted by Austrian economics. The very basis of human action is purposeful behavior; to call human action "mindless" is absurd. Consumers at Wal-Mart and other chain stores are not zombies walking aimlessly through the building with glassy stares. They are human beings with needs and desires who perceive that at least some of those desires can be fulfilled through the use of goods purchased at Wal-Mart.

In a free society, activists would have to try to convince other individuals to change their buying habits via persuasion and voluntary action. Yet, the very history of "progressivist" activism in this country tells us a story of people who use the state to force others to do what they would not do given free choices. Yesterday, Microsoft was in their crosshairs; today, it is Wal-Mart, and tomorrow, some other hapless firm will be declared guilty of providing customers choices that they had not enjoyed before. A great sin, indeed."
Excerpt from Does Walmart Destroy Communities?

Poetic_Justice · Jun 5, 2004, 06:53 pm

By the way, their whole premise is wrong. They say that all the money is sucked into Walmart's head office. this si obviously wrong since only a fraction goes to pay franchising fees. And in any case what matters in an economic system is not how much "money" (WEhich is worthless in and of itself except as a medium of exchange) is in a particular geographic area, nor is it howe many capital goods are in that same area, it is how satisfied the people in that same area are. Perhaps some small businesses go out of business, but they usually pay their workers less than Walmart does. On the other hand other small businesses will start up. For example, people spend less money on groceries and clothes, so they will now have more money to spend on home improvements, tailoring, artwork, etc. All those businesses which don't comepte with Walmart will experience a boom in sales because of the increase in disposable income which people will have.

The "plague" of Walmart is called progress, I suggest luddites go find somewhere else to propagandize.

Compugasm · Jun 5, 2004, 10:42 pm

If you want to know who's Responsible for the National Debt read that.

If you want to know the Why we're in deep doodoo, read that. If Osborn F Enready finds this thread, his discussion of it will fillibuster you to sleep.

I direct you to the Libertarianism thread if you want to read about Wal-Mart. It has 2+ pages of all wal-mart discussion. Lets not set the argument back to square one.

This thread should be called "Why Wal-Mart S.U.C.K.S" if you want to talk about Wal-Mart because it'll make it easier to find tomorrow when you want to talk about Wal-Mart, and not the true cost of things, make sense? Also, i thought it was against some kinda rule to blind post articles.

castille · Jun 6, 2004, 01:30 am

The alternative to Walmart:
Lining up outside the State Bakery in Moscow for bread. "Hi Ivan!"

Anyone remember how Walmart got started?

Jun 6, 2004, 09:58 am

Poetic,

"And in any case what matters in an economic system is not how much "money"...it is how satisfied the people in that same area are."

That isn't economics, but voodoo based on feelings.

Your excerpt from Does Walmart Destroy Communities? doesn't apply to the topic article.

Poetic_Justice · Jun 6, 2004, 10:29 pm

My article referred to THIS

Quote:

(Senseless Uneducated Consumerism Killing Society)

And it is not voodoo, it is basic economics, marginal utility, utility, and all that jazz. I could tomorrow double the money of every single person in America, would that REALLY help the economy? Of coruse not, since prices would then double too. So obviously money in an economy doesn't matter.

syracusa · Jun 7, 2004, 12:57 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Poetic_Justice,
" The very basis of human action is purposeful behavior; to call human action "mindless" is absurd. Consumers at Wal-Mart and other chain stores are not zombies walking aimlessly through the building with glassy stares. They are human beings with needs and desires who perceive that at least some of those desires can be fulfilled through the use of goods purchased at Wal-Mart.]

My behavior is also purposeful and my purpose is to exchange my money for a quality product. To buy less and to buy better. The vast majority of products sold by WalMart are crappy, cheesy, mass-produced and likely to fall apart between your hands 3-4 days after you bought them.

I think that many people in this country forgot what a quality, hand-made product looks and feels like. No wonder Americans need large dwellings - because they need storage space for the tons of cheap junk bought at Wal-Mart. They have the largest closets yet they are the the worst-dressed in the entire industrialized world.

Quantity will never compensate for quality. And I would pay a bit extra to give that small store-owner a chance - any time.

PatrickHenry · Jun 7, 2004, 01:12 pm

Lots of the stuff I buy at Wal-Mart is disposable anyway. I buy pens, paper goods, basketballs, books, mags, CDs, electronic games, seeds for the garden, water hose, little cactuses, fertilizer... What kind of quality should I be lookin' for in these items? I probably won't be getting my next Rolex watch there, true. But for everyday stuff to keep the house functional, why pay more?

syracusa · Jun 7, 2004, 01:36 pm

A lot of people buy everything at Wal-Mart not just pens and magazines.
Plus I doubt that you would find these "disposables" to be more expensive elsewhere.

A magazine costs the same at Wal-Mart and at Borders.

Poetic_Justice · Jun 7, 2004, 07:14 pm

If you wish to buy most of your stuff outside of Walmart, all the power to you, I do the same... I also stay away from chain restaurants and prefer to stick to family restaurants... However, neither of our preferences should determine the preferences of everyone else... They should have the freedom to use their wealth as they see fit, of coruse we can both encourage them to shop elsewhere, but that should be the extent of our meddling...

Comrade · Jun 7, 2004, 08:44 pm

With a number of exceptions, family restaurants have much better food :)
There's this place outside my school called Doughnuts and Rice. Oh, man. In the morning, they have tons of doughnuts, best doughnuts ever, then around noon they start making meals, its a good deal of excellent fried rice, for something like $3.99.

Lava · Jun 8, 2004, 08:12 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by castille,

Anyone remember how Walmart got started?

not a clue.

Mr.Vicchio · Jun 8, 2004, 08:15 pm

Do you know what Wal Marts profit margin is?

3.5%

And I love the lies about the minimum wage jobs. Thats funny, commonly spouted lie about Wally World... sigh..

bishop · Jun 8, 2004, 08:49 pm

heh... ever hear of the case where some 250 illegal aliens were arrested while working for walmart? or what about the case where illegal aliens sued walmart for not paying them their wages (they were janators)?

poor walmart, always getting picked on.

Poetic_Justice · Jun 8, 2004, 10:54 pm

bishop,
They were not hired by Walmart... Walmart hired the janitorial company which used illegal aliens and didn't pay them. Someone foud out, the company went under, ad sicne they cant get the money out of their former employers lawyers have advised them to attack Walmart. Only with the anti-corporation felling that runs rampant could anyone even THINK that this is legally right. Third parties are never supposed to be responsible.

bishop · Jun 8, 2004, 11:15 pm

while that is the case, i don't buy the reasoning... these hundreds of illegals were working in walmart.. i wonder what the regional managers said when they saw all these hundreds of illegals working in their stores.

imo, they had to have been morons to think that they were legal...

Comrade · Jun 9, 2004, 03:06 am

Wal-Mart hires illegals because they don't have to pay them very much, because how is an illegal immigrant going to force them to pay minimum wage? Its the exact same thing as outsourcing, only the jobs are still in America.

Poetic_Justice · Jun 9, 2004, 08:01 am

Dude...
Have you ever worked as a janitor? I have, and I do. It does nt take hundreds of people to clean a Walmart. I haven't personally cleaned one, but I can't imagine it needing more than a dozen at the very most to clean that story in the eight hours its closed. So each store has a dozen latinos in it. First of all, the managers, as with the managers at my work, wouldn't pay much attention to janitors who come at night. Second, I'm thiunking its not too out of the ordinary for latinos to be janitors in that part of the country, whether legal or illegal immigrants. A huge proportion of janitors in my city are immigrants. And how do you tell legal from illegal immigrants unless you check their papers? I doubt a Walmart manager would think of checking their papers since he would assume that the janitorial company, like him, required proof of ability to work in the US before hiring someone.

Jun 5, 2004, 10:42 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
Compugasm Son of X51 Location: San Diego Posts: 3,643	If you want to know who's Responsible for the National Debt read that. If you want to know the Why we're in deep doodoo, read that. If Osborn F Enready finds this thread, his discussion of it will fillibuster you to sleep. I direct you to the Libertarianism thread if you want to read about Wal-Mart. It has 2+ pages of all wal-mart discussion. Lets not set the argument back to square one. This thread should be called "Why Wal-Mart S.U.C.K.S" if you want to talk about Wal-Mart because it'll make it easier to find tomorrow when you want to talk about Wal-Mart, and not the true cost of things, make sense? Also, i thought it was against some kinda rule to blind post articles. I'd like to thank Charlie Hodge, bringing me scarves and water.

Jun 6, 2004, 01:30 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
castille Citizen #21521 Posts: 2,599	The alternative to Walmart: Lining up outside the State Bakery in Moscow for bread. "Hi Ivan!" Anyone remember how Walmart got started? Ideological loyalty is the act of giving your soul to a vague concept, to be manipulated by people smarter than you.

Jun 7, 2004, 01:12 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	Lots of the stuff I buy at Wal-Mart is disposable anyway. I buy pens, paper goods, basketballs, books, mags, CDs, electronic games, seeds for the garden, water hose, little cactuses, fertilizer... What kind of quality should I be lookin' for in these items? I probably won't be getting my next Rolex watch there, true. But for everyday stuff to keep the house functional, why pay more? "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Jun 7, 2004, 01:36 pm	#10 (permalink) (top)
syracusa Igneous Magma Posts: 623	A lot of people buy everything at Wal-Mart not just pens and magazines. Plus I doubt that you would find these "disposables" to be more expensive elsewhere. A magazine costs the same at Wal-Mart and at Borders. COMPETITION BRINGS THE BEST IN PRODUCTS AND THE WORST IN RELATIONSHIPS.

Jun 7, 2004, 08:44 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	With a number of exceptions, family restaurants have much better food :) There's this place outside my school called Doughnuts and Rice. Oh, man. In the morning, they have tons of doughnuts, best doughnuts ever, then around noon they start making meals, its a good deal of excellent fried rice, for something like $3.99. Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Jun 5, 2004, 03:32 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
StoneWT Guest Posts: n/a	The True Cost of Things Why Wal-Mart S.U.C.K.S. (Senseless Uneducated Consumerism Killing Society) By Richard Baynton, co-founder of Alternatives Magazine The day Wal-Mart came to town, the townsfolk were downright joyful about it. A huge, brand new, job-providing, property tax paying mega-store planting itself on the edge of the community. And did I mention huge? And amazingly low prices, too! Get the kids! Let’s go shopping! And they did. Suddenly that $25 widget at the downtown hardware store could be had for a mere $14.95. Incredible! Film developing at the local camera shop was way too expensive now. Prices at the market down the street? Forget about it! Too high compared to the brand new superstore. And the convenience! Food, car batteries, electronics, books, beer, clothes, jewelry, and more, and more, and more… The local unemployed lined up for the new jobs, thrilled at their fresh prospects for a steady paycheck and the self-respect society confers on those with a job. So what if it pays only minimum wage, with minimum benefits . . . it’s a job! ............................. For the rest of the article, click on the link at the top of this post.

Jun 5, 2004, 06:48 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	"The last objection—that Wal-Mart helps create "mindless" consumerism—is easily refuted by Austrian economics. The very basis of human action is purposeful behavior; to call human action "mindless" is absurd. Consumers at Wal-Mart and other chain stores are not zombies walking aimlessly through the building with glassy stares. They are human beings with needs and desires who perceive that at least some of those desires can be fulfilled through the use of goods purchased at Wal-Mart. In a free society, activists would have to try to convince other individuals to change their buying habits via persuasion and voluntary action. Yet, the very history of "progressivist" activism in this country tells us a story of people who use the state to force others to do what they would not do given free choices. Yesterday, Microsoft was in their crosshairs; today, it is Wal-Mart, and tomorrow, some other hapless firm will be declared guilty of providing customers choices that they had not enjoyed before. A great sin, indeed." Excerpt from Does Walmart Destroy Communities?

Jun 5, 2004, 06:53 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	By the way, their whole premise is wrong. They say that all the money is sucked into Walmart's head office. this si obviously wrong since only a fraction goes to pay franchising fees. And in any case what matters in an economic system is not how much "money" (WEhich is worthless in and of itself except as a medium of exchange) is in a particular geographic area, nor is it howe many capital goods are in that same area, it is how satisfied the people in that same area are. Perhaps some small businesses go out of business, but they usually pay their workers less than Walmart does. On the other hand other small businesses will start up. For example, people spend less money on groceries and clothes, so they will now have more money to spend on home improvements, tailoring, artwork, etc. All those businesses which don't comepte with Walmart will experience a boom in sales because of the increase in disposable income which people will have. The "plague" of Walmart is called progress, I suggest luddites go find somewhere else to propagandize.

Jun 6, 2004, 09:58 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
StoneWT Guest Posts: n/a	Poetic, "And in any case what matters in an economic system is not how much "money"...it is how satisfied the people in that same area are." That isn't economics, but voodoo based on feelings. Your excerpt from Does Walmart Destroy Communities? doesn't apply to the topic article.

Jun 7, 2004, 07:14 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	If you wish to buy most of your stuff outside of Walmart, all the power to you, I do the same... I also stay away from chain restaurants and prefer to stick to family restaurants... However, neither of our preferences should determine the preferences of everyone else... They should have the freedom to use their wealth as they see fit, of coruse we can both encourage them to shop elsewhere, but that should be the extent of our meddling...

Jun 8, 2004, 08:15 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Mr.Vicchio Navy Veteran Location: Texas Posts: 6,031	Do you know what Wal Marts profit margin is? 3.5% And I love the lies about the minimum wage jobs. Thats funny, commonly spouted lie about Wally World... sigh.. Einstein's "Theory of Relativity" is still being challenged to this day, but by consensus Global Warming is a fact... that's REAL science at work, why didn't Albert just go that route?

Jun 8, 2004, 08:49 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	heh... ever hear of the case where some 250 illegal aliens were arrested while working for walmart? or what about the case where illegal aliens sued walmart for not paying them their wages (they were janators)? poor walmart, always getting picked on. hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jun 8, 2004, 10:54 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	bishop, They were not hired by Walmart... Walmart hired the janitorial company which used illegal aliens and didn't pay them. Someone foud out, the company went under, ad sicne they cant get the money out of their former employers lawyers have advised them to attack Walmart. Only with the anti-corporation felling that runs rampant could anyone even THINK that this is legally right. Third parties are never supposed to be responsible.

Jun 8, 2004, 11:15 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
bishop moderat-e/o-r Location: boston Posts: 11,184	while that is the case, i don't buy the reasoning... these hundreds of illegals were working in walmart.. i wonder what the regional managers said when they saw all these hundreds of illegals working in their stores. imo, they had to have been morons to think that they were legal... hope for america... http://www.ronpaul2008.com/

Jun 9, 2004, 03:06 am	#18 (permalink) (top)
Comrade Hot Lava Location: Texas Posts: 1,229	Wal-Mart hires illegals because they don't have to pay them very much, because how is an illegal immigrant going to force them to pay minimum wage? Its the exact same thing as outsourcing, only the jobs are still in America. Oh, it's really too bad, isn't it? -- http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/050121/480/watw10701210224 Hahaha, that's funny. Liberals are so silly!

Jun 9, 2004, 08:01 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Poetic_Justice Igneous Magma Location: Edmonton, Canada Posts: 209	Dude... Have you ever worked as a janitor? I have, and I do. It does nt take hundreds of people to clean a Walmart. I haven't personally cleaned one, but I can't imagine it needing more than a dozen at the very most to clean that story in the eight hours its closed. So each store has a dozen latinos in it. First of all, the managers, as with the managers at my work, wouldn't pay much attention to janitors who come at night. Second, I'm thiunking its not too out of the ordinary for latinos to be janitors in that part of the country, whether legal or illegal immigrants. A huge proportion of janitors in my city are immigrants. And how do you tell legal from illegal immigrants unless you check their papers? I doubt a Walmart manager would think of checking their papers since he would assume that the janitorial company, like him, required proof of ability to work in the US before hiring someone.