Hate Crimes

[againstthewind]

The Buffalo News: World & Nation
May 5, 2006

Now, this is heading in a direction I want to start a topic on. Since gay marriage was just made legal in Canada, it is a crime to preach against homosexuality and you can get thrown in jail for it. Is this leading the same way for the United States?

[LordCaelvan]

I truely hope so. It is an individual (poor) desision to base your life upon the 2000 year old writings known as the Bible, or any other holy book for that matter. But even if a person should choose to do so, they should not have the right (as they do right now) to harass others who don't. Homosexuals are people as much as anyone else. I don't care what the Bible says, they aren't immoral for having sex with people they love, and the christian right needs to learn that just because they don't like something, just because something if different to them, just because they would rather have it another way, doesn't mean that they get to force their opinions on the rest of the community.

[againstthewind]

Ok. Should everyone still have the right to their opinion even if it is based on the Bible? I mean, I feel as a Christian and as a man that homosexuals are pushing their agenda on me as well as others who don't like it.

[gw120]

Now, this is heading in a direction I want to start a topic on. Since gay marriage was just made legal in Canada, it is a crime to preach against homosexuality and you can get thrown in jail for it. Is this leading the same way for the United States?

Hope not, anyone should be able to say anything they want.

[againstthewind]

I think that as long as the preacher doesn't incite violence against homosexuals, they should proclaim that homosexuality is wrong and tell Christians to get involved in the political process and thus stand up for righteousness. This is not infringement on the seperation of church and state

[Conservative]

It absolutely is not heading in that direction. You're talking about making it ILLEGAL to say something that you believe in. So if we made it illegal to preach against gay marriage,it would be completely negating the 200 year old document that this country is based on. Why not just make it illegal to go to church and write about what you want while were at it. Christians are entitled to our own opinion, just like non-Christians are.

[Matt W]

We have a very strict interpretation of what goes into Breaking News. againstthewind, please follow this format in future - it shows you exactly how to do so when you post a new topic in this forum. Please PM me if you feel this should be anywhere but Society & Rights.

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[againstthewind]

And why would this not be in breaking news? Just because it hasn't been publicized in recent times doesn't disqualify its importance

[Matt W]

Responded to you via PM - please address this via PM, not in-thread, as per the above message. Thanks.

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[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Lord C I don't care what the Bible says, they aren't immoral for having sex with people they love, and the christian right needs to learn that just because they don't like something, just because something if different to them, just because they would rather have it another way, doesn't mean that they get to force their opinions on the rest of the community.

Nobody is forcing anything upon anyone. If you don't like what they say, don't listen. They have the same right to voice their opinions as you do, regardless of whether or not you think they are wrong.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy Nobody is forcing anything upon anyone. If you don't like what they say, don't listen. They have the same right to voice their opinions as you do, regardless of whether or not you think they are wrong.

I think there is a point when it could be considered forcing their opinions on someone else though. Just as I believe that it would be wrong for against the wind to go into a gay bar and start telling them that they are going to hell for being gay, I don't feel that it should be acceptable for a gay person to start making out in public.

Against the wind: I don't see how legalizing gay marriage means that you can no longer preach against it...It's more proof that the way preaching has been done is ineffective.

[LordCaelvan]

I feel as though as long as preaching against a certain sexual preference is considered alright, discrimination against that preference will never be completly blown away. Is discrimination against blacks for their skin color alright? Is discrimination against woman for their gender alright? No and no, and to promote either would be socially unacceptable. So why is it exactly that this third option, one that is no more a choice than the other two alright?

I'm all for free speech as much as the next guy. But freedom of speech shouldn't extend to hate crimes. No one choose their race, their gender, or their sexual preference. They shouldn't face any crap from preachers about something they were born with, opinions or not. And let's not pretend that all this anti-homosexual stuff from the bible isn't responsible for gay bashings and discrimination. I cannot see any other reason why someone would commit such crimes against homosexuals, considering that they aren't responsible for any of societies problems or anything like that.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa I think there is a point when it could be considered forcing their opinions on someone else though. Just as I believe that it would be wrong for against the wind to go into a gay bar and start telling them that they are going to hell for being gay,

You can think it's wrong all you wish; your subjective moral judgements don't trump First Amendment rights.

Quote by: Lord C I feel as though as long as preaching against a certain sexual preference is considered alright, discrimination against that preference will never be completly blown away. Is discrimination against blacks for their skin color alright? Is discrimination against woman for their gender alright? No and no, and to promote either would be socially unacceptable.

Socially unacceptable is fine. Legally prohibited is not.

Quote by: Lord C But freedom of speech shouldn't extend to hate crimes. No one choose their race, their gender, or their sexual preference.

There is nothing objectively wrong with anti-homosexual speech; you just happen not to like it. Your position is no more valid than a fundamentalist Christian saying that pro-homosexuality speech should be prohibited.

Quote by: Lord C They shouldn't face any crap from preachers about something they were born with, opinions or not.

They don't have to listen.

Quote by: Lord C And let's not pretend that all this anti-homosexual stuff from the bible isn't responsible for gay bashings and discrimination. I cannot see any other reason why someone would commit such crimes against homosexuals, considering that they aren't responsible for any of societies problems or anything like that.

Prejudice is a natural human condition. It exists regardless of anti-homosexual speech. If you wish to reduce this prejudice, there are many proven ways to reduce prejudice in our society, all of which are social methods; none of which are legislative.

[Jack]

Representing the pro-gay position:

doesn't mean that they get to force their opinions on the rest of the community.

Representing the anti-gay contingent:

pushing their agenda on me as well as others who don't like it.

I disagree with you both. No one is pushing their opinion down your throat. Each group, Christian and gay, are becoming more vocal and, thanks in large part to TV and to a lesser degree the internet, becoming more noticeable. Being exposed to a contrary view is hardly going to occupy your attention for more than a few minutes a day. And you know, it doesn't hurt or condemn you to hell for simply being exposed to a differing opinion. What you pay attention to is always yours to control.

Back to that "gay agenda" thing. The Christian right has stated, through their spokesmen Falwell, Robertson, Bush and the rest, that they intend to impose their religious (philosophical) beliefs on the government as much as possible. That is a stated agenda.
What is there comparable to that from the gay community? They wish to gain acceptance and equality. A goal pursued by countless Americans before them. They don't want to change the rules, they want the rules to apply equally to everyone. Further, who speaks for the gays? To force an agenda on everyone, a group needs friends in high places. Who have the gays got?
There's far less to fear from any organized gay activity than there is from organized religion.

[againstthewind]

Quote by: Rinoa I think there is a point when it could be considered forcing their opinions on someone else though. Just as I believe that it would be wrong for against the wind to go into a gay bar and start telling them that they are going to hell for being gay, I don't feel that it should be acceptable for a gay person to start making out in public. Against the wind: I don't see how legalizing gay marriage means that you can no longer preach against it...It's more proof that the way preaching has been done is ineffective.

The way it's going with Hate Crimes legislation and making it a crime to speak against homosexuality (including saying the colorful words that many people do). It would soon eclipse all other forms of speech against hmosexuality as well.

[DEEJ85]

Quote by: LordCaelvan I feel as though as long as preaching against a certain sexual preference is considered alright, discrimination against that preference will never be completly blown away. Is discrimination against blacks for their skin color alright? Is discrimination against woman for their gender alright? No and no, and to promote either would be socially unacceptable. So why is it exactly that this third option, one that is no more a choice than the other two alright? I'm all for free speech as much as the next guy. But freedom of speech shouldn't extend to hate crimes. No one choose their race, their gender, or their sexual preference. They shouldn't face any crap from preachers about something they were born with, opinions or not. And let's not pretend that all this anti-homosexual stuff from the bible isn't responsible for gay bashings and discrimination. I cannot see any other reason why someone would commit such crimes against homosexuals, considering that they aren't responsible for any of societies problems or anything like that.

Although it is true that the Bible does cause some anti-gay sentiments it is not right to say that it is the only cause. Much homophobia is caused by fear or disgust (which doesn't make it wrong) In all aspects of society. If it was caused by the Bible or church then there wouldn't be people who are against homosexuality that aren't religious. The bible also says to show love to everybody, perhaps its just the people following it that mess it up?

Some churches choose to show respect to homosexuals as much as anyone else but don't approve of their choice of lifestyle. a parallel of this is pre-marital sex. The church chooses to respect and care about the individuals in question, but doesn't approve of the lifestyle. Homosexuals should be treated with just as much respect as anyone else, regardless of your feelings towards their actions or choices.

Is it ok If a church or pastor chooses not to marry a same sex couple? This wouldn't prevent the couple from getting married, they would just have to do it somewhere else. They could get married by a government offical who has no religious qualms. Why would you want to get married in a church or by a person that disapproves of the union itself? I doubt it would be very fun or comfortable.

[againstthewind]

Quote by: DEEJ85 Some churches choose to show respect to homosexuals as much as anyone else but don't approve of their choice of lifestyle. a parallel of this is pre-marital sex. The church chooses to respect and care about the individuals in question, but doesn't approve of the lifestyle. Homosexuals should be treated with just as much respect as anyone else, regardless of your feelings towards their actions or choices.

In Canada they are trying to remove passages that don't view homosexuality favorably. I would not even promote a Bible that doesn't have the whole Bible. If someone is preaching that marrying homosexual couples is a good thing and it's not biblical, then I am not going to attend that church. Ultimately, it is going to do what Hitler did and that is impose its will upon the church.

Hate crimes legislation will ultimately seek to silence the right wing conservatives. I am not a staunch Republican or Democrat but the Republicans have the right view of this. It will ultimately try to silence voices like that of the late Jerry Fallwell. (He was right on the money on many things)

[Gabe2007]

They don't have to listen.

I agree with 'The Bacon Guy' on this...if you dont want to hear then dont listen...now if they make you listen then thats a different story..

Prejudice is a natural human condition.

No matter what, EVERYBODY has some prejudice so it is not right for certain groups to be extended this legal right to protect their "oh-so sensitive" feelings. If this was to occur, then we would have watch our mouths at every turn because we dont want "offend" somebody...that is absolute BS!

they dont like it...ignore it or leave. its that simple....but dont force your emotions on everybody because your bi-polar or something

[Night]

Even I as a homosexual don't like this, no speech should ever be censored or illegal...even if it is ridiculously stupid.

[shield772]

Quote by: LordCaelvan I feel as though as long as preaching against a certain sexual preference is considered alright, discrimination against that preference will never be completly blown away. Is discrimination against blacks for their skin color alright? Is discrimination against woman for their gender alright? No and no, and to promote either would be socially unacceptable. So why is it exactly that this third option, one that is no more a choice than the other two alright? I'm all for free speech as much as the next guy. But freedom of speech shouldn't extend to hate crimes. No one choose their race, their gender, or their sexual preference. They shouldn't face any crap from preachers about something they were born with, opinions or not. And let's not pretend that all this anti-homosexual stuff from the bible isn't responsible for gay bashings and discrimination. I cannot see any other reason why someone would commit such crimes against homosexuals, considering that they aren't responsible for any of societies problems or anything like that.

The very nature of free speech is someones right to express openly and without fear of prosecution by the government that which most disgusts you, it is not only for speech you like if that was the case it would not need to be protected.