Minority Students Do Not Have The Right To College Education

[CoffeeSaint]

. . . Because nobody has the right to college education. Everybody has the right to a fair and equal opportunity to have a chance at a college education, but nobody is guaranteed they will be allowed in, no matter what race, creed, or color.

Am I wrong about this? Does affirmative action, or simply the current paradigm of empowerment, grant a minority student the right to a college education, despite any possible obstacles, such as poor grades or low test scores? Does anyone have the right to demand an education from a college or university, or is it only a privilege? And is there a double standard defined by race?

[Osborn F Enready]

It depends on the university and who funds it, firstly.

If the taxpayers fund it, and there are CONSTITUTIONAL grounds that support that funding (which there isn't), then they could claim it as a right by entitlement of taxation, for such university.

People have NO inherant rights that involve the labor of others, except children who have partial rights until parents are expected to have educated and raised the child to mental maturity to the best of their ability. Their abilities are all different, as are their means, therefore that is an individual issue..... UNLESS, parents are being taxed for education that their child is not entitled to.

This is why taxation for education was not in the Constitution and bill of rights, because it crosses, or abridges individual rights by taxation for services rendered with descrimination by the government agents, or "representatives" in that system or school. That would be government sponsored descrimination, and is Unconstitutional, and is exactly what we have today in many ways concerning public education.

[brien]

If a University is funded by taxpayers, then they have the right to attend the University.

[Slevin57]

I don't agree.

Car Manufacturers are subsidized by the government... You don't have a right to work at Ford.

The farming industry is heavily subsidized by the government... You don't have a right to work on a farm.

But, you CAN work at Ford, you CAN be a farmer, and you CAN go to College. It's up to you.

I don't' think that minority students should be given preferential treatment, that is an outdated policy that only fuels racism as this point.

[Osborn F Enready]

Slevins57 said: I don't agree.

Well, lets discuss the logic at work then.

What part of it do you take issue with?

Slevins57 said: Car Manufacturers are subsidized by the government... You don't have a right to work at Ford.

A prime example of why government should not be subsidizing industry.

Slevins57 said: The farming industry is heavily subsidized by the government... You don't have a right to work on a farm.

Again, another prime example of why government shouldn't be subsizdizing industry.

Slevins57 said: But, you CAN work at Ford, you CAN be a farmer, and you CAN go to College. It's up to you.

That's right, it is a right to APPLY for work at Ford, to ATTEMPT to get into farming or buy a farm, or to APPLY and go to college if you can afford to, and meet the entrance requirements.

Do you see the problem now? Why am I being stolen from by government, using threat of force or imprisonment, or removal of property, to support a service I cannot necessarily partake in, or don't necessarily agree with, or support the idea or ideals of?

Slevins said: I don't' think that minority students should be given preferential treatment, that is an outdated policy that only fuels racism as this point.

So why do you think industry has a right to special treatment by being subsidized from the taxpayers pockets without their solicitation or conscent, or option to decline?

What do you know of the history of taxation in the United States of America?

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready So why do you think industry has a right to special treatment by being subsidized from the taxpayers pockets without their solicitation or conscent, or option to decline? What do you know of the history of taxation in the United States of America?

Whoa, whoa! Slow down there -- that isn't the topic. I don't think Slevin was saying the current state of things is right, proper, or the best of all possible worlds. But the situation as it stands is as he described: our paying taxes to the government does not give us free access to everything the government spends our dollars on. I do see how that simply adds fuel to your argument against taxation and non-Constitutionally limited government, but we are only speaking of the corrupt and illegal government we currently have.

And in that current situation, I don't have the right to go pick up some of the military weapons I have paid for and use them on door-to-door Biblethumpers.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Does anyone have the right to demand an education from a college or university, or is it only a privilege?

I'd like to think of universities as private clubs that can accept or decline anyone they want.


That said, I don't see why they wouldn't let everyone who wanted to enroll in. The money is the same, what do they care if someone flunks out their first semester?

[Alive]

Has anyone argued that people have a right to public education?

It definitely helps to be a minority if you're competing for college enterance, but it's still not a done deal; if your grades and scores are below the (lower, but still existing) standard the college will not accept you.

The government should fund college education and should not grant a right to it. There is public benefit to education of the best students. Educating the stupid and lazy is of considerably less benefit.

[againstthewind]

Someone asked me if I got into a college simply because I was black, would that be fair.

I say that I hope my credentials speak for me. Also, I think that if I was really looking forward to getting there, I would be happy no matter what regardless of the reason. I would say that affirmative action programs are good for those who want to get help, that's what they are there for. Some programs and scholarships are there for you no matter what race you are. There are some for Asian students, some for Arabian or Middle Eastern students, etc. By focusing on black students, I think it sort of borders on prejudice

[againstthewind]

Slevins57 said:
Car Manufacturers are subsidized by the government... You don't have a right to work at Ford.

Reply by Osborn F Ready A prime example of why government should not be subsidizing industry.

Againstthewind's reply:
This is leading toward the Antichrist and the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. First the rapture, then the world leader arises, gets to own the world and then the mark of the beast which is on the right hand or the forehead. Anyone who doesn't get the 666 will not be able to do anything legally. Read Revelation

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: Alive Has anyone argued that people have a right to public education? It definitely helps to be a minority if you're competing for college enterance, but it's still not a done deal; if your grades and scores are below the (lower, but still existing) standard the college will not accept you. The government should fund college education and should not grant a right to it. There is public benefit to education of the best students. Educating the stupid and lazy is of considerably less benefit.

I think these are great points. No, this discussion hasn't turned to public education K-12, but I don't believe anyone argues against it. There are several issues about the current state of education, and how it should be run re: vouchers, but nobody thinks its a bad thing, I don't think -- at least, nobody would prefer that everyone remain ignorant.

I wasn't trying to start an affirmative action discussion, but I'm curious:
Do you think it's reasonable to give minority students an added boost in terms of admission?

Quote by: againstthewind Againstthewind's reply: This is leading toward the Antichrist and the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. First the rapture, then the world leader arises, gets to own the world and then the mark of the beast which is on the right hand or the forehead. Anyone who doesn't get the 666 will not be able to do anything legally. Read Revelation

:eek:

[Alive]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint I think these are great points. No, this discussion hasn't turned to public education K-12, but I don't believe anyone argues against it. There are several issues about the current state of education, and how it should be run re: vouchers, but nobody thinks its a bad thing, I don't think -- at least, nobody would prefer that everyone remain ignorant. I wasn't trying to start an affirmative action discussion, but I'm curious: Do you think it's reasonable to give minority students an added boost in terms of admission?

I wasn't actually talking about K-12 education, but college education--I don't think many people argue that everyone should have a right to college education regardless of their skills. I don't think everyone needs to have a right to complete high school either, for that matter.

I'm ambivilant about affirmative action. The truth of the matter is a lot of what goes into college acceptance is arbitrary anyways, so why not give the arbitrary advantage to black people? The obsession with "diversity" annoys me though. And I admit that it does allow you to think--would this person be here if not for AA? But not as much as when you see an athlete. And honestly I haven't noticed a real ability difference between average whites and blacks.

[ZNFYRH]

This falls back to my stance on any kind of discrimination.

If you know you're part of a group that faces discrimination, then you should not expect things to be handed to you. Instead, you will have to work harder so that when you are denied something in life, you can justly show that you excel at that thing and put the pressure on those denying you to give a valid reason for not accepting you.

Or to put it simply...

Be so effing awesome at what you do that there is no non-racial reason to deny you.

[brien]

That said, I don't see why they wouldn't let everyone who wanted to enroll in. The money is the same, what do they care if someone flunks out their first semester?

This is not the point. Those who qualify, and even some who don't, still have a right to attend the State University if they are state students. Universities now have remedial programs for those who aren't qualified to move right into 100 level courses. In the present day society, everyone has the right to an education and the opportunity no longer ceases at the 12th grade, because if it did, it would condemn some people to a life of ignorance and poverty. Since citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness, and education is inherent in these pursuits, all US citizens have the right to an education and this includes the State Universites just as it does in the primary and secondary levels. Indeed, those who argue that students have a right to an education, can't logically argue this right ceases at the conclusion of the secondary education in today's society.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: brien Since citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and education is inherent in these pursuits, all US citizens have the right to an education

Since citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and a notebook computer with broadband internet service is inherent in these pursuits, all US citizens have the right to a notebook computer with broadband internet service.



Indeed, that would greatly enhance my pursuit.


You can just send it to my house.

[againstthewind]

I went to a college that was predominantly white and I must admit, I felt as if I were being looked at crazily because I was black. Now, I'll digress a bit here but white people are rarely aware of prejudice because they have rarely seen it.

Now, I didn't have a lot of money either but I still needed to get access to scholarships and things too. I also felt that I had to work twice as hard because I am black.

[brien]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Since citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, and a notebook computer with broadband internet service is inherent in these pursuits, all US citizens have the right to a notebook computer with broadband internet service. .

Straw dog here. Tools in education aren't the same as the right to an education. Education is compulsory through grade 12, and lawmakers extend it as a right. The same reasoning applies throughout the University level for the same reasons, except it isn't compulsory. If it is a right in the lower grades, then it must be a right in the higher grade levels as well.

[tman_ndsu08]

Since it's not compulsory, it's not a right.

[brien]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 Since it's not compulsory, it's not a right.

So you maintain because lower education is compulsory, it is right? This is the only reason it is a right? Do we have any other rights that are compulsory?

The fact that lower education is compulsory doesn't make it a right. It merely is law that is enumerated from the right to an education.

[tman_ndsu08]

It's only a right because it's compulsory, not the other way around.