Minority Students Do Not Have The Right To College Education

[brien]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 It's only a right because it's compulsory, not the other way around.

I think you're off base here. But if you really believe this, can you name any other right that is compulsory in nature? Let's examine the right to a speedy trial. It is a result of the right to a speedy trial that the government is compelled to give you a speedy trial, not the other way around. The government doesn't extend you the right to a speedy trial, they merely protect that right by being compelled to give you a speedy trial. I can't think of any rights that are compulsory in the US. Once again, the compulsory nature of the right to an education is merely a result of the right to an education, something that legislatures made in law. Rights are not conferred by legislation, they can only be secured and guaranteed by legislation, which is what compulsory laws try to do for education and speedy trials.

Therefore, if we have a right to an education, does it not logically extend to post secondary education, particularly in today's society where if you don't have a post secondary education, one is at a disadvantage in society?

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: brien can you name any other right that is compulsory in nature?

I'm saying that the definition of a right only exists in the context of compulsory enforcement.


You only have a right to education because the government demands you go to school.


If it didn't demand that, you wouldn't then have that right.

[brien]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 I'm saying that the definition of a right only exists in the context of compulsory enforcement. You only have a right to education because the government demands you go to school. If it didn't demand that, you wouldn't then have that right.

I have showed you in my last post #21 how rights exist first and then enforcement of those rights are followed up with law. They are a result of the right not the other way around. You fail to answer the issues I raised in that post and merely repeat your incorrect conclusions. I can't show you any more than I have here. If you can't see how rights exist before the enforcement of those rights, I can't go any farther with you here.
Sorry.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: brien I have showed you in my last post #21 how rights exist first and then enforcement of those rights are followed up with law.

That's nonsensical.

A right can't exist on it's own merit.



Only in the context of enforcement is a right relevant.

[Fangrim]

People have a right to free speech and bear arms but they aren't forced to use those rights.

I think by enforcement you mean those rights are protected? I certainly wouldn't want compulsory enforcement for my rights...

[Osborn F Enready]

OMG


People really need to educate themselves on what is and is not a RIGHT.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: brien This is not the point. Those who qualify, and even some who don't, still have a right to attend the State University if they are state students. Universities now have remedial programs for those who aren't qualified to move right into 100 level courses. In the present day society, everyone has the right to an education and the opportunity no longer ceases at the 12th grade, because if it did, it would condemn some people to a life of ignorance and poverty. Since citizens have the right to life, liberty and the pursuit of hapiness, and education is inherent in these pursuits, all US citizens have the right to an education and this includes the State Universites just as it does in the primary and secondary levels. Indeed, those who argue that students have a right to an education, can't logically argue this right ceases at the conclusion of the secondary education in today's society.

I most certainly can argue that the right to an education ends at grade 12. In fact, it ends before that, because it is based on a set of criteria, not an age or a date -- hence the GED as an alternative to completion of all 13 grades of primary schooling.

Since there are plenty of people who have perfectly happy lives with a high school dimploma, and in fact with less than a high school diploma, I don't believe there is any guaranteed right to a higher education. The very fact that you mentioned "those who qualify, and even some who don't" as having the right to attend state college necessarily implies that some do not have the right to attend if they do not qualify. If not everyone has the right, then it is no right. Right?

[brien]

The very fact that you mentioned "those who qualify, and even some who don't" as having the right to attend state college necessarily implies that some do not have the right to attend if they do not qualify

By qualification I meant interms of being able to handle the work load. It had nothing to do with the right to an education.

I most certainly can argue that the right to an education ends at grade 12

If a person has a right to an education when they are age 10, then that right doesn't disappear at age 20. Rights don't evaporate according to age. Either they have a right to an education or they don't. Since you agree they have a right to an education at age 10, that right doesn't evaporate at age 18. Rights don't evaporate simply because of the person's age.

[RickSp]

Quote by: CoffeeSaint . . . Because nobody has the right to college education. Everybody has the right to a fair and equal opportunity to have a chance at a college education, but nobody is guaranteed they will be allowed in, no matter what race, creed, or color.

Are you suggesting that minority students are guaranteed a college education? If so, by whom, where and how?

I live in a mixed neighborhood where the schools that my sons attend are split roughly in thirds by race - black, white, and Hispanic with the last ten percent being mostly Asian. The only kids are who are absolutely guaranteed to get into college are those with enough of another color - green.

The benefits of Affirmative Action are often overstated. My older son goes to a highly competitive magnet high school. As a result of a lawsuit decades ago, admissions reflect the ethnic make up of the community as well as test scores, grades and extra-curricular activities. Despite this quota system, white kids still have the easiest time getting in the school only because there is less competition among white kids who families often have greater financial resources and therefore have more alternatives.

Quote by: CoffeeSaint Everybody has the right to a fair and equal opportunity to have a chance at a college education, but nobody is guaranteed they will be allowed in, no matter what race, creed, or color.

Then--to honor the "fair and equal opportunity right"--wouldn't the best way for all colleges to decide who attends be by a lottery drawn from all those who apply and meet the minimum qualifications? A lottery would insure equal per capita representation regardless of race, gender, creed, color, religion, academic achievement, nepotism, and economic wherewithal.

Regards
S.

[brien]

Quote by: tman_ndsu08 That's nonsensical. A right can't exist on it's own merit. Only in the context of enforcement is a right relevant.

Nonsensical? Do you have the right to a speedy trial? Of course you do. So how is that right protected? It is enforced by the DOJ in the courts under the terms of the Constitution that states you will receive a speedy trial. Therefore, your protection of that right comes by way of the DOJ's enforcement of that speedy trial. I can't make it any more plain than this, but I will give it one more try.

Same as in education. If you have the right to an education, that right is protected by the government which will protect that right at any government school, should the school attempt to barr you from the classroom. For example, when the State of Alabama tried to stop blacks from entering the University during the George Wallace Administration, the Federal government stepped in and forced the University to admit blacks who deserved the protection of their right to enroll in the University by the Federal government.

Nonsensical? Hardly.

[Osborn F Enready]

againstthewind said: This is leading toward the Antichrist and the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. First the rapture, then the world leader arises, gets to own the world and then the mark of the beast which is on the right hand or the forehead. Anyone who doesn't get the 666 will not be able to do anything legally. Read Revelation

If I believed in storybooks and fantasy, you would have a compelling argument there......

P.S.

Brien, thanks for so eloquently speaking my endorsed side of the argument while I have been gone.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: brien By qualification I meant interms of being able to handle the work load. It had nothing to do with the right to an education. If a person has a right to an education when they are age 10, then that right doesn't disappear at age 20. Rights don't evaporate according to age. Either they have a right to an education or they don't. Since you agree they have a right to an education at age 10, that right doesn't evaporate at age 18. Rights don't evaporate simply because of the person's age.

From the day you are born until the day you die, you have the right to have a k-12 education. If you could not finish for some reason by age 18, you can go back to school when you are 20, though there may have to be some accommodations made. If you want to finish high school when you are 80, you have the right, still, because rights do not evaporate with age, as you said.

And on the other hand, from birth to death, you have the right to apply for a college education, but you are not guaranteed one.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: RickSp Are you suggesting that minority students are guaranteed a college education? If so, by whom, where and how?

I'm stating that nobody is guaranteed a college education, anywhere, any time. I'm asking for confirmation, or correction of this view.

Quote by: RickSp I live in a mixed neighborhood where the schools that my sons attend are split roughly in thirds by race - black, white, and Hispanic with the last ten percent being mostly Asian. The only kids are who are absolutely guaranteed to get into college are those with enough of another color - green. The benefits of Affirmative Action are often overstated. My older son goes to a highly competitive magnet high school. As a result of a lawsuit decades ago, admissions reflect the ethnic make up of the community as well as test scores, grades and extra-curricular activities. Despite this quota system, white kids still have the easiest time getting in the school only because there is less competition among white kids who families often have greater financial resources and therefore have more alternatives.

Seems reasonable to me.

[Osborn F Enready]

Coffee said: From the day you are born until the day you die, you have the right to have a k-12 education. If you could not finish for some reason by age 18, you can go back to school when you are 20, though there may have to be some accommodations made. If you want to finish high school when you are 80, you have the right, still, because rights do not evaporate with age, as you said. And on the other hand, from birth to death, you have the right to apply for a college education, but you are not guaranteed one.

So, if you recognize that I have a right to APPLY for college, why do I not have a right to deny college I won't use my funding, via taxation?

“There is not really any such thing as federal money. Every dollar spent at the state or federal level got there by the sweat of someone's labor. Even the funny money created out of thin air carries with it a future taxpayer obligation to pay.”
-Senator David Duke R-Colorado, from Media Bypass, March 1996

“We believe--or we act as if we believed--that although an individual father cannot alienate the labor of his son, the aggregate body of fathers may alienate the labor of all their sons, of their posterity, in the aggregate, and oblige them to pay for all the enterprises, just or unjust, profitable or ruinous, into which our vices, our passions or our personal interests may lead us. But I trust that this proposition needs only to be looked at by an American to be seen in its true point of view, and that we shall all consider ourselves unauthorized to saddle posterity with our debts, and morally bound to pay them ourselves; and consequently within what may be deemed the period of a generation, or the life of the majority.”
-Thomas Jefferson to John Wayles Eppes, 1813. ME 13:357

“It is incumbent on every generation to pay its own debts as it goes. A principle which if acted on would save one-half the wars of the world.”
-Thomas Jefferson to A. L. C. Destutt de Tracy, 1820. FE 10:175

“If taxes are laid upon us without our having a legal representation where they are laid, we are reduced from the character of free subjects to the state of tributary slaves.”
-Sam Adams

“In other words, governments do not collect taxes to provide services, they provide services as an excuse to collect taxes.”
-Richard J. Maybury, Whatever Happened to Justice?

“The hardest thing in the world to understand is the income tax.”
-Albert Einstein

[brien]

And on the other hand, from birth to death, you have the right to apply for a college education, but you are not guaranteed one

.

But if I have the right to apply for a college education, then government indeed protects and guarantees that right because that is what the US government does according to the Constitution.

I never stated that government guaranteed the education, but wrote that if government extended the right to an education to its citizens, that right can't expire. There are no expiration dates upon rights.

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: brien Do you have the right to a speedy trial?

Only because it is enforced.

If it were not enforced, I would not have that right.

you have the right to an education, that right is protected by the government

Only because the government enforced compulsory education do I have that right.

[Osborn F Enready]

Tman said: Only because it is enforced. If it were not enforced, I would not have that right.

You would have no rights if they weren't enforced.

What don't you understand?

Every individual has an obligation to enforce their rights, if they seek to exercise them. That is the purpose of our government, to enforce rights in the name of the people, with respect to the rights of the people to unalienable rights as lond as the unalienable rights of others were respected in your pursuits.

The government does not grant rights, we granted government power, to enforce rights, designed and agreed to by the people, for the people, of the people.

The governments only power over rights is the enforcement of individual rights, legally, and when required, using force against those who INITIATE force against the rights or will of the people.

Tman said: Only because the government enforced compulsory education do I have that right.

Wrong. You would have that right if you enforced it. The government could NOT exist and you could still have that right had you the will and means to enforce it.

[CoffeeSaint]

Quote by: brien . But if I have the right to apply for a college education, then government indeed protects and guarantees that right because that is what the US government does according to the Constitution. I never stated that government guaranteed the education, but wrote that if government extended the right to an education to its citizens, that right can't expire. There are no expiration dates upon rights.

Then we agree. Every citizen has the right to apply for a college education, but nobody has the right to receive a college education; nobody has the education guaranteed.

Actually, now that I think about it, we don't really have the guaranteed right to learn anything in k-12, either. Because you have the legal right to sleep through 13 years of school and then drop out -- don't you?

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready Every individual has an obligation to enforce their rights, if they seek to exercise them.

But how do we know which rights we have to start with?


I have the right to a big screen TV.

Guess I better go enforce that right by breaking into the store and taking one?