The Toaster

[terrence]

THE TOASTER
Well this has been a few weeks in the making, but bear with me. A friend of mine, (you know who you are) introduced me to this new show, "The L Word". Well I wouldnt say introduced, more like politely asked me if she and her girlfriend could come watch it because I have satellite and can get showtime. I am a pretty open minded person, so I was like, hey okay why not.

Now after watching the first episode, and second episode of this new season, we have come up with some fantastic debates!!! Well she calls them arguements, but to me arguing is yelling and screaming at each other without finding a solution to a problem. I dont really argue, I just state my opinion and usually make a pretty strong point.

A few of the many things that we discussed about the show -

well I pointed out that everyone on the show had a serious problem, but obvisously none of the characters wanted to take responsibility for their actions, and each one of the characters in the show is in a predicament because of either poor choices, or poor lifestyle. I mean hey, if your gonna be gay. Dont bitch about people judging you. Dont complain about its soooo hard to be gay, well sorry everyone, but if your gonna be "different" you best be prepared to deal with people who "dont understand" and if your gonna be a drug addict, well hey! Dont come crying because your a crackhead with no money or braincells. Your the dumbass who decided to mess around with that crap!

But more to the point, one of the characters in the show, whos name eludes me, is a woman who wants to be a man. Now, I want to make it perfectly clear that I dont have a problem with people wanting to change themselves to fit who they "think" they are (although I do find it morally wrong to change sexes) because its their body, and they can do what they want with it.

The point I made is that going through that kind of transformation is a LIE. Plain and simple. If you were born a woman, and then change yourself to a man, well your not realllly a man see. Your still a woman on the inside. You just had some fancy ass expensive surgery change your outside to look like something else. If your a man, and decided to change yourself to a woman, well the best way I can describe that is referencing a line from a Southpark episode, courtesy of MR./MRS. Garrison (same person, different sex) "What do you mean I cant have an abortion? If I cant bleed out my snatch once a month and have an abortiion THAT would mean that in not REALLY a woman! Im just a MAN with a mutilated PENIS!!!"

Ha haha well that Southpark has a way of putting things into perspective doesnt it?

Personally, if I started dating a girl, and then later found out she used to be a guy, well I would be pissed, and also hurt. Because I have a hard time dealing with lies. And when you come to me and tell me your a woman, well thats what I expect you to be, and always have been, and always will be is a woman. So my point was, if someone is going to change their sex from one to the other, they should be straight out with it and say, listen im a woman, but last week I was a man. Or vice-versa. That way nobody is confused about anything and catastrophes can be avoided.

Well my friends point of view was, if you have some surgery done to change your sex, well now your a whole new person. So if your a woman, and you have a sex change, voila! your a man! And the fact that you were once a woman has no bearing on any future encounters, your a man now, and thats that. She feels that it is not a lie to tell someone that you are a man, but last week you were a woman.

So, I decided to try and explain my point of view in a way that made sense. I said imagine your cell phone. A cell phone was designed as a communications device for people to use to contact one another through a variety of means. Now, take a toaster. Good old fashioned chrome plated double bin toaster, designed to turn ordinary bread into nice warm crispy toast! The phone one day decides that it wants to be a toaster. So it goes to the shop, gets some sheet metal welded on to the outside, and a little electric cord hangin out its ass. Now, it looks like a toaster! So some unknowing person goes to walmart to get a toaster, looks at the box, says "TOASTER" in big letters all over it, for 39.95. This person then goes home to plug it in and make some toast. But you know what? IT CANT MAKE TOAST!!!!!! Because under all that fancy sheet metal work its STILL A CELL PHONE!!!!

Wouldnt you be pissed off if you bought a Toaster and found out later that it wasnt a toaster at all? And since you bought it on clearance, you cant take it back!!!!

I thought I made a valid point, but she still thinks that if it looks like a toaster, and thinks its a toaster, its okay to say that a cell phone is a toaster even if it doesnt make toast!!!! All I am asking for is for people who do that sort of thing to be honest about it from the get go, you know as sort of a courtesy to the person they are talking to?

NO MORE LIES!

[brien]

If I bought a toaster and found it it was a cell phone, I would look for the microphone and digits so I could make a call while I was at breakfast.

[Technosoul]

The thing is that way up in heaven one angel made a goof with their computers and accidently sent down some souls to the wrong bodies when they were born. That computer error resulted in a lot of confusion when a female soul found her self in a male body, and visa versa.

That angel likewise sent some souls to the wrong race, and so some black bodies ended up with the souls for a white person, and visa versa.
Again this caused some unhappyness because they did not feel they fit into their assigned families.

And some poor guy was given a soul for a rich guy and ended up being mad about that and played the Lotto everyday hoping to change the lie that had been forced upon him.

And people said... "Hey, if you were born poor you should deal with it because changing who you are would just be a lie" but the guy would take that for an answer.

Just like the fact that this topic should be in the entertainment section and not in the body of debate devoted to society and rights. However I guess entertainment reflects reality or the other way around.

None the less I got on the god-phone and contacted the Department of Souls to speak to that angel in charge as I expected an aplology or at least a "re-call" of those souls that were miss-placed. But instead I got this "damage control" cover-up story that the angel had to balance things out because too much of the population were poor and we only had a few wealthy people left, and also that due to the overpopulation problem they sent some male souls into female bodies and female souls into male bodies, and that way it would cut down on so many people being so darn reproductive, because they would have same-sex relationships instead, and therefore that would help us out with our problems about overpopulation.

I was trying to debate that with the Department of Souls but they just told me that I have a out--of -- balance imagination and that my god-phone was really just my kitchen toaster, then they hung up on me.

[terrence]

well although your post did make me smirk slightly, i believe you are missing the point.

I stated that i dont have a problem with the transformation, personally i think its wrong, but at the same time, its your body, do what you want with it.

HOWEVER

My point was simply that denying the fact that you have been transformed is a lie. so telling me your a woman, and neglecting to say that last week you were a man, well thats a lie. its also a lie to say you were never male. its also a lie to say that you are now female. Because you cannot change your body chemistry, only the appearance of your body. So i dont care how much silicone you get or what you have chopped off, your genetic makeup will always be what you started out with. I am not talking about "feelings" I am talking about the pure physical aspect of "transgender"

[Kamehameha34]

You describe yourself as open minded, then proceed to preach that being gay is a choice?

I mean hey, if your gonna be gay. Dont bitch about people judging you. Dont complain about its soooo hard to be gay, well sorry everyone, but if your gonna be "different" you best be prepared to deal with people who "dont understand"..

[Kamehameha34]

Neglecting to tell you something that you have no business knowing is not a lie. Is it a woman's duty to tell you that she usually wears pants, if she happens to be wearing a skirt that particular day?

If a male-female transexual tells you that she was never male, then that's a lie. That has nothing to do with the operation, though, because it would still be a lie with or without it.

If you want to talk about the "pure physical" aspect, then they would be female. Women have vaginas. Men have penises. The only different between a male-female transgender on estrogen and a sterile female is a period for 2-8 days out of the month, and an X chromisone.

Neither of these things should matter in a relationship - unless you just "think it's icky".

[5010]

Depends on the relationship. If I'm the boss and hired someone to work for me, I don't care what their sex used to be as long as they perform their duties. If I'm playing raquetball all I care about is their game. But if I am in an intimate trusting relationship with someone and they seemed to be trustworthy and open and I was open to them and found out they were lying about something that major I wouldn't trust them anymore and would switch to a much less intimate relationship and find another best friend.

[terrence]

I am open minded, and I am not preaching to anyone, just stating that it is people choice to be straight gay or what ever the case may be, although I have my personal reservations about being gay. Now you have somewhat contradicted yourself when you say,

"If you want to talk about the "pure physical" aspect, then they would be female. Women have vaginas. Men have penises. The only different between a male-female transgender on estrogen and a sterile female is a period for 2-8 days out of the month, and an X chromisone."

Well according to you, there is a difference between male and female, besides the obvious penis - vagina. You say that chromosomes affect gender and this is true, so knowing this, wouldnt you say that a male who still switched gender to female, would still have male defining chromosomes? Therefore, in the prime physical aspect, it is still what it was born, just simply looks different on the outside.

Again, my point is to say that it is a lie to say that you are the opposite sex that you were born, because you will never be anything other than the sex you were born, i dont care how much surgery you get. it is not natural.

[Kamehameha34]

just stating that it is people choice to be straight gay or what ever the case may be

So, assuming you're straight, could you be gay for a day at will?

Well according to you, there is a difference between male and female, besides the obvious penis - vagina.

I was attacking your point with multiple points. One was the legal definition for "woman".

You say that chromosomes affect gender and this is true, so knowing this, wouldnt you say that a male who still switched gender to female, would still have male defining chromosomes? Therefore, in the prime physical aspect, it is still what it was born, just simply looks different on the outside.

Unless you get your kicks out of cutting open the women you sleep with and looking at their bone marrow under a microscope, that wouldn't make a difference.

Again, my point is to say that it is a lie to say that you are the opposite sex that you were born, because you will never be anything other than the sex you were born, i dont care how much surgery you get. it is not natural.

Regardless of what you think is natural, the only thing seperating a transvestite from a sterile woman are arbitrary, meaningless factors to a partner.

[terrence]

i have to disagree, because one of the keystones for a good relationship in my own mind anyway, are honesty. and not telling your partner that you used to be the opposite sex, is a huge red flag. if it was not a big deal as you say, then they should have no problem telling their new partner very early on that they used to be the opposite sex.

[Kamehameha34]

You're free to ask.

If they say no, and you find out later that they were, then break up for them for being dishonest.

Calling them dishonest for not disclosing what they might view as an irrelevant fact seems like an excuse to get out of the relationship without admitting it's that they are transvestites.

[terrence]

well nobody should have to verify sex before dating them. as a straight man, I am out to date women, who were always and will be women. not a guy who had plastic surgery. It is lying to say that a man with fake breast and no penis is a woman, because its just a cosmetic surgery to change outward appearance. still a man.

[Kamehameha34]

That's why you have the right to ask. People aren't going to stop getting the surgery to acquiest to your homophobic dating preferences.

[terrence]

im not asking people to quit. im asking for honesty. you are straying away from my original point here. its about what is real, and what isnt. what makes an tree a tree or a fish a fish. here is another example. I have an apple tree. if i cut off all the apples, and then tie some oranges to the tree, it would appear to be an orange tree. however, its not really an orange tree. just an apple tree with a few modifications.

[Kamehameha34]

im asking for honesty.

Then ask them if they're transexual.

They're not obligated, by honesty, to tell you if you don't ask.

[DEEJ85]

Is it wrong to have such a preference?


it is kind of like dating someone who has had plastic surgery.

I remember there was a thread somewhere on this site about this.
Would you date someone that has had plastic surgery? Several people said no on the grounds that they feel the person who had the plastic surgery is way too insecure about them self. Or that this person places too much emphasis on physical appearance.

This seems to be taking plastic surgery to the extent where they change their identity. You might say in defense that they are only changing their bodies to match who they are inside.

Are not these women who get ordinary plastic surgery (non sex altering) also trying to change their bodies to mirror who they are inside?

how are these trans gendered people more justified in changing who they are then those who make ordinary plastic surgery adjustments.

I am not trying to say how these people live their own lives. If they choose to have a sex change then its their right to do so. What I am saying is it is not unreasonable or immoral to want to know who they are.

[Kamehameha34]

RIght. But it is unreasonable to expect them to carry identification cards.

If you want to know, ask.

[DEEJ85]

Exactly


this is why I would be careful who I pickup and get close.

[terrence]

again you are straying from the point. im saying it is a lie to call a man who switched to woman, a TRUE woman. or vice versa. in the physical aspect, none of this fitting who they think they are stuff. just like apple trees will never be orange trees or vice versal

[Kamehameha34]

No. It's not a lie.

Everyone who has a vagina, and not a penis is a female.
Male-Female transvestites have vaginas, and not penises.
Therefore, male-female transvestites are women.


It's a lie to say that a male-female transexual was born a woman. For that, you have the right to ask. If they lie, then they are dishonest.