When is the appropriate age to become sexually active?

[Rinoa]

At what age is a person ready to engage in intercourse for the first time? When answering please consider the following:

Is sex an adult activity?
What are the emotional affects?
Are teenagers adults?
When are human bodies grown enough to be ready for sex?
At what age do we have the cognitive ability to see how are our actions might affect us longterm?

Thanks for your help!

[saltinespike]

Erm. Why did you post this when you have the other one?

[Rinoa]

Because the other was in reference to legal issues.

As I stated in the other thread:

One is within the realm of law because it is preventing rape, the other is a moral problem. One that should not be controlled by law.

The age of consent thread is specifically referencing when the law should step in and prevent sex between to individuals due to age and that is the only aspect the topic allows for. This thread addresses when individuals of any age should begin having sex. I've participated in these debates on other forums, and gone into enough detail to know that they are related, but the issues that need to be taken into consideration are different.

If a moderator feels that my observation is incorrect they are welcome to request that I continue this discussion in the other thread with it's new aspects, though I would like the old one to be retitled if that is the case.

[Kamehameha34]

Whenever someone can figure out whether they want to or not, while understanding all of the implications.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa At what age is a person ready to engage in intercourse for the first time?

Using age as the qualifying factor is pointless. It's about maturity; not how long you have been alive.

[Osborn F Enready]

Rinoa said: At what age is a person ready to engage in intercourse for the first time?

When the parent and child agree on the level of maturity required, and the level of maturity reached, ideally, but communities, towns, villages, cities should have the right to set the age of adulthood for most issues including age of conscent, as should the federal government in regards to only/at least contract liability of the individual.

Rinoa said: Is sex an adult activity?

Sex is an activity that has been practiced by people of all ages throught our history as humans, from young to old, different in cultures as well as individuals.

I personally view sex as an activity that shouldn't be left to the individual until emotional and rational maturity have been reached, and that is a level I think only the parents can determine accurately in general, for any specific individual child.

I think 18 is reasonable, personally, for contract rights to apply as adults.
I think sex is something kids between 12 and 16 are absolutely curious about, so limiting it in law is a risky proposition, since laws only justify the use of force against offenders in apprehension and imprisonment.

Rinoa said: What are the emotional affects?

Something that require maturity, and differ for every person in any relationship that may or may not contain sexual acts.

Rinoa said: Are teenagers adults?

Teens start at 13, and end at 19, so some are, certainly.

Are all teenagers adults? No.

Maturity usually comes between 14 and 17 I would say, in most well raised children. (my personal opinion)

I don't think there is a "bar" at which you could definitively say everyone above this bar is and adult and mature, and everyone below this bar is not.

I think if there was a bar, 17 would be the safest bet, in my opinion.

Rinoa said: When are human bodies grown enough to be ready for sex?

That also differs, but I think the general medical conscensus is now in America, around the age of 13 or 14 years old, on average. I don't know the latest for a fact though.

Rinoa said: At what age do we have the cognitive ability to see how are our actions might affect us longterm?

Maturity issue, different for all teens.

Rinoa said: Thanks for your help!

No problem.

[Rinoa]

Bacon Guy: But there are ages at which it is impossible to have achieved the maturity level required to have sex. A ten year old for example is far too young to be mature enough to participate in that activity. When asked for an age in reference to this the poster is generally requesting the age at which you believe it is possible to have achieved that level of maturity.

Osborn F Enready

I think sex is something kids between 12 and 16 are absolutely curious about, so limiting it in law is a risky proposition, since laws only justify the use of force against offenders in apprehension and imprisonment.

I agree that a law prohibiting sex at the ages of 13+ is ridiculous. At those ages it is the parents responsibility. However, a girls body has not completed the full development to prevent harm to her by the age of thirteen. For instance, a girl that age has not yet 'gotten hips' which indicates pelvic widening. Pelvic widening is important in that it makes room for entry by the boy. Without this the vagina can be damaged. Also girls that young often aren't producing enough mucous to lubricate enough for sex, again causing tears. These two factors can lead to permanent scarring that leads to a lack of elasticity in the birth canal which makes it harder to fit a baby leading to complications during birth.

With all the bad parents I've seen I don't believe that it's fair to leave the health and safety of a girl that young(and generally uninformed) in the hands of an incompetent parent. In most cases under the age of thirteen I honestly believe that it is a form of neglect on the part of the parent, and if it were up to me I'd fine them for it. If parents knew that their 12 year old having sex could cost them a couple hundred bucks they'd probably pay a little more attention to their kid.

That also differs, but I think the general medical conscensus is now in America, around the age of 13 or 14 years old, on average. I don't know the latest for a fact though.

I think that you're about right on that...but the age is starting to go down due to better nutrition. Which poses a question...according to current research within the next century 10 year old girls will be physically ready for sex. when this occurs it will not speed up psychological development outside the aspect of attraction, and interest in intercourse. Given those factors, would it be acceptable to allow ten year olds to consent to sex with other ten year olds?

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa Bacon Guy: But there are ages at which it is impossible to have achieved the maturity level required to have sex. A ten year old for example is far too young to be mature enough to participate in that activity.

How do you know?

[Rinoa]

The physical development of the ten year old. Their bones have yet to close offf, and that rambunctious activity can damage joints, as well as the underdeveloped genitilia. Emotionally they don't have the capacity to handle the consequences. Formation of the frontal lobe and the ridiculously low level of formation completion evinces that.

Saying that a ten year old is too young for sex is a generally accepted fact. It's like saying a five year old is too young. Unless you have reason to disagree?

[The Bacon Guy]

Not every ten year old would be damaged by sex; it depends on many factors; not just age. Maturity is not directly proportional to the size of the frontal lobe; it also depends on many factors.

Making generalisations is pointless unless you have a precise and proven model; which you do not have for something as unverifiable as maturity.

[Rinoa]

In the case of a ten year old, yes you do. While it is possible for them to have achieved menarche, 85% of them will not do so until after the age of eleven. (less than 5% have had it at age ten) That is a very physical measurement of the maturation level of the body.

And yes, every ten year old would be damaged to some extent by sex. This is because the factors you mention begin to come together at menarche, they do not culminate for at least a year afterward. That's why the medical community has stated that the body is not mature enough until at least thirteen. Emotionally, an eight year old and a ten year old are quite similar, especially when compared to the psychological differences between a ten year old and a thirteen year old. And if you think a thirteen year old is ready for sex you need to look at their reasoning, I gaurantee you'll find fault.

Also, we are dealing with sociology, which is mass groups of people, not necessarily each individual. generalisations are the really the only way in order to be able to state anything involved.

I'd really like some proof from you that a ten year old can in fact be ready, not just weak refutation of my logic.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa And yes, every ten year old would be damaged to some extent by sex. This is because the factors you mention begin to come together at menarche, they do not culminate for at least a year afterward.

Some children have reached menarche by age nine.

Quote by: Rinoa Emotionally, an eight year old and a ten year old are quite similar, especially when compared to the psychological differences between a ten year old and a thirteen year old. And if you think a thirteen year old is ready for sex you need to look at their reasoning, I gaurantee you'll find fault.

What proof have you that no ten year old is emotionally mature enough to make the decision?

Quote by: Rinoa Also, we are dealing with sociology, which is mass groups of people, not necessarily each individual. generalisations are the really the only way in order to be able to state anything involved.

You mentioned nothing of generalisations in your OP; you asked for an absolute statement about an individual person. I have no interest in generalisations, so if that is your game, I’ll bid you farewell and ask you to be more specific in your posts next time.

[Rinoa]

I asked for a specific age in regards to the general population. Not every individual.

Some children have reached menarche by age nine.

As I stated in my previous post, that is a ridiculously small percent, and up until this last century it was considered premature(precocious puberty). With that defect some girls have reached menarche before age five, as in the case of Lina Medina, does that imply that she, as a two year old was physically mature and ready for sex? There are three reasons children have it before the age of ten, higher estrogen content in their diet as a baby due to formulas being so widespread, higher fat percentage due to obecity, and birth defect.

As for proof that a ten year old is not ready look up kohlberg's stages of development, those define it rather well.

And I love the way you demand proof of me, and yet refuse to provide your own proof that a ten year old can be ready. I was as specific in my post as the science it is in regards to allows, I would request that in the future you strengthen your posts with several facts, instead of one that is true in about 2% of the population. Lovely way to escape the fact that the foundation of your argument has no backing.

Also, if this really is your view then you are someone whom I hope has no contact with children, nor children of your own. Your idea is absolutely disgusting.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: Rinoa At what age is a person ready to engage in intercourse for the first time? When answering please consider the following: Is sex an adult activity? What are the emotional affects? Are teenagers adults? When are human bodies grown enough to be ready for sex? At what age do we have the cognitive ability to see how are our actions might affect us longterm? Thanks for your help!

This is a highly emotive topic. I can see by many of your replies Riona, that you consider the education of youth very important. Is not sexual intercourse the only social activity which society fails to educate in?

All of your questions have importance and weight in the appropriate timing for taking part in sexual congress. Sadly though the skills required to gain, and more importantly, give pleasure during such a wonderful physical act are not taught. (Yes in very rare circumstances private tuition is given to some!) The consequences are often an embarassing disater for the first timer and often their partner. To be a caring society the mechanics and practice of all forms of foreplay and ultimately the act of sexual union should be taught. This to be coupled with the psychological and emmotional support mechanisms to enforce and allow the release of hormonal surges in these youths to be understood more readily by themselves.

Oh I can see worried looks from parents who may view this as enabling some pervert access to their offspring. However I suggest the "practical apsects" of this training would be done gradualy by consenting youths of like age and mutual admiration who feel ready to explore further the joy that their bodies can bring to each other. Their teachers would be young adults fully competent in all aspect of the correct education, from councilling to contraception, and would only demonstrate so their class understood! Various artificial devices could be utilised so no contact was made with the pupils. The pupils only practising on their chosen partner.

By "learning" in such a fashion they themselves would gain much and also readily realise if they where ready to take the full step.

As for their "age" probably due to considerable differences in emotional maturity the girls would be (in most cases) younger than their male partners. The real age of "class" entry would be based purely upon legal and parental consent.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa I asked for a specific age in regards to the general population. Not every individual.

No you did not:

Quote by: OP At what age is a person ready to engage in intercourse for the first time?

Quote by: Rinoa As I stated in my previous post, that is a ridiculously small percent,

It doesn’t matter how small it is; it exists and it therefore invalidates any absolute claims made about a ten year old’s readiness for sex.

Quote by: Rinoa As for proof that a ten year old is not ready look up kohlberg's stages of development, those define it rather well.

What aspect of Kohlberg's stages of development do you believe proves that any given ten year old will be emotionally unable to deal with sex?

Quote by: Rinoa I would request that in the future you strengthen your posts with several facts, instead of one that is true in about 2% of the population.

The fact provided was that menarche can be reached by age nine. This validates my claim that you cannot say definitively whether or not a ten year old is physically ready for sex.

Quote by: Rinoa Lovely way to escape the fact that the foundation of your argument has no backing.

My argument is that age cannot be an absolute determinant of maturity in any specific individual. The fact that you have not been able to provide any evidence which applies in one hundred percent of cases backs up my argument rather nicely.

Quote by: Rinoa Also, if this really is your view then you are someone whom I hope has no contact with children, nor children of your own. Your idea is absolutely disgusting.

Pointless ad hominem. If you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you without getting all emotional, you shouldn't be posting here.

[Rinoa]

I think that they need to be educated in an age appropriate manner and that sexual activity should begin gradually. As they 'master' one level, such as kissing or flirtation, they move up to the next.

Layout for sexual education:

3-5Babies come from Mommies tummy, and these are the parts that you keep private. Your swimsuit area is just for you.
5-8Mommy and daddy have a special hug, and the baby starts to grow in mommies tummy(accompanied by an age-appropriate book that shows fetus development.)
8-10 Maturation discussion explaining how her body is changing, what this means, and how to take care of it during the upcoming years. As well as respecting it, and an upping in her amount of privacy.

11+ Answer any questions she has to the extent she wants, while always reminding her that sex is a special adult activity At the same time it is importat to enjoy that she is attaining her firsts with her...first real crush, first kiss, etc. it's just that this needs to be done gradually. You wouldn't want her to marry the first guy she ever went on a date with, so why would you want her to sleep with him?

17+ Allow subscriptions to magazines like cosmo and glamour, which teach technique and that sort of thing, she's becoming an adult, and once out of high school, will be making choices for herself, she's ready for it.

Arawn- I agree that people do need to learn about sexual techniques, etc. but, again, that can wait. There are so many other things for them to be learning in their younger years. I have a favorite quote in regards to appropriate sex education...The fact that we apprehend sex gradually, instead of instantaneously does not detract from it.

[Rinoa]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy It doesn’t matter how small it is; it exists and it therefore invalidates any absolute claims made about a ten year old’s readiness for sex.

That would be true, but menarche is the beginning of the steps required for physical maturation, not the culmination. Menarche is used as the deciding line for hitting puberty. Hitting puberty is not a determinate for actually being mature, but before menarche there is no possible way for her to be mature bodily.

What aspect of Kohlberg's stages of development do you believe proves that any given ten year old will be emotionally unable to deal with sex?

Kohlberg's stages show world view. Sex causes a ten year old alot of pain due to the size of her vagina. Pain is still viewed as punishment. I'd like you to remember that we are dealing with a fifth grader. They are still at the stage where they do not break the rules because they will be punished. So, by having that pain induced they are likely to believe that they have done wrong, leading to the belief that sex is wrong, bad or dirty.

There's also there lack of ability to reason into the future. A fifth grader might have the cognitive ability to understand how her homework will effect her grade(fairly short term consequence) but not how her grade will affect her future and the college she will attend(long term). Because of this I would actually say that a ten year old who had menarche between 8 & 9 and is therefore ovulating is less prepared for the consequences of sex because she can have a baby. (a baby that is 75% more likely to be premature because of her bodies lack of ability to to carry full term, and she will need to have a Csection because her pelvis is not big enough even for a premie) So one who is physically mature cannot be emotionally mature enough to handle the consequences(baby, std, etc.)

The fact provided was that menarche can be reached by age nine. This validates my claim that you cannot say definitively whether or not a ten year old is physically ready for sex.

Eight. And menarche is not the cumlination of maturation that occurs during puberty, it is the beginning. There are other factors that determine physical readiness.

My argument is that age cannot be an absolute determinant of maturity in any specific individual. The fact that you have not been able to provide any evidence which applies in one hundred percent of cases backs up my argument rather nicely.

My lack of evidence does nothing to prove your point, or else the lack of evidence you have provided would have already made mine for me. Also, we are dealing with psychology and sociology. Not physics. The margin of error allowed in this science in order to make it scientific fact, and not generalisation is 5%. This means that if it true for at least 95% of the population the minority is considered to be abnormal and have other interfering factors that were not taken into consideration for the study. In other words even though there is 2% that have it, because 98% of the population doesn't, they are considered to be abnormal, meaning that there is some defective factor.

And to refute that age cannot be used, I'll use the age of 5 to make the issues more extreme. A five year old is never physically or mentally mature enough to handle sex. If the have reached menarche then it is due to congenital defects, and the rest of the body is not matured with the ovaries. The pelvis is too thin, as is the vagina, and entry is only possible by damaging her genitalia. The fact that her body is damaged because she is too small shows that she has not physically developed enogh for sex. So no five year old can be ready for sex.

Hip widening as a characteristic of puberty, and to the extent to be conducive for sex does not begin to occur til two years after menarche. The youngest age at which menarche can occur without being considered precocious is eight, therefore the youngest the hips can begin to widen would be ten. Therefore the same damage that occurs in the five year old also occurs in the ten year old, to a slightly lesser extent due to natural growth between the two ages.

Pointless ad hominem. If you can't deal with someone disagreeing with you without getting all emotional, you shouldn't be posting here.

It was a simple statement saying that someone holding that belief is not suited to be around children. Maybe the disgusting bit was over the line. But I stand by saying that your apparent belief, and those that hold it should be kept away from kids.


Oddly though, debating with you has been the most helpful in preparing for my paper...

[Osborn F Enready]

Rinoa said: I think that you're about right on that...but the age is starting to go down due to better nutrition. Which poses a question...according to current research within the next century 10 year old girls will be physically ready for sex. when this occurs it will not speed up psychological development outside the aspect of attraction, and interest in intercourse. Given those factors, would it be acceptable to allow ten year olds to consent to sex with other ten year olds?

Given THOSE factors, no. I do think we could see serious change coming in the age of maturiy though as technology is increasing, and I think that would have to be entered into that calculation.

At the same time, I am anti-big government, and pro-limited government.
I think local laws, even of this type are much more effective, and representative of the people if they should be made into law at all.

I am appalled at the number of people who justify the use of force by government to appease their conscience about what OTHERS do.

Force is force, no matter where it comes from.

[Rinoa]

Personally I believe that the government should only step in when citizens are in harms way. Harm is constituted physically, and psychologically.

The problem with leaving it to local law is that if pedophiles were to get together and set up their own city then they could write laws stating that the AoC is birth. Unlikely, I know, but theoretically it could happen. More likely would be a liberal group setting the age at 13. Also, that causes a strain on the citizens. It's already confusing enough for most people to determine their AoC, but to leave it up to municipalities would exasperate that issue.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Rinoa That would be true, but menarche is the beginning of the steps required for physical maturation, not the culmination. Menarche is used as the deciding line for hitting puberty. Hitting puberty is not a determinate for actually being mature, but before menarche there is no possible way for her to be mature bodily.

You said yourself that the culmination can occur a year after menarche. Ten is a year after nine.

Quote by: Rinoa Kohlberg's stages show world view. Sex causes a ten year old alot of pain due to the size of her vagina.

Not if the guy’s penis is small. Besides, sex can be painful in any case, but this doesn’t matter if the individual is emotionally able to deal with it.

Quote by: Rinoa Pain is still viewed as punishment. I'd like you to remember that we are dealing with a fifth grader. They are still at the stage where they do not break the rules because they will be punished. So, by having that pain induced they are likely to believe that they have done wrong, leading to the belief that sex is wrong, bad or dirty.

The keyword here being “likely”. There are exceptions to any generalisation.

Quote by: Rinoa There's also there lack of ability to reason into the future. A fifth grader might have the cognitive ability to understand how her homework will effect her grade(fairly short term consequence) but not how her grade will affect her future and the college she will attend(long term).

Proof that this is the case for all ten year olds?

Quote by: Rinoa My lack of evidence does nothing to prove your point, or else the lack of evidence you have provided would have already made mine for me.

If you want proof, here it is by deduction: We know that children mature at different rates. We know that their bodies develop at different rates. Hence, the point at which an individual is ready to have sex (as queried in your OP) cannot be determined by age.

Quote by: Rinoa Also, we are dealing with psychology and sociology. Not physics. The margin of error allowed in this science in order to make it scientific fact, and not generalisation is 5%. This means that if it true for at least 95% of the population the minority is considered to be abnormal and have other interfering factors that were not taken into consideration for the study. In other words even though there is 2% that have it, because 98% of the population doesn't, they are considered to be abnormal, meaning that there is some defective factor.

You asked for a precise age at which a person is ready for sex: an absolute. I responded that there was no way to make a determination of this nature, and you disputed this. Since you now acknowledge that your absolute argument against my point is actually based on a generalisation, I’ll consider it retracted.

Quote by: Rinoa And to refute that age cannot be used, I'll use the age of 5 to make the issues more extreme. A five year old is never physically or mentally mature enough to handle sex. If the have reached menarche then it is due to congenital defects, and the rest of the body is not matured with the ovaries. The pelvis is too thin, as is the vagina, and entry is only possible by damaging her genitalia. The fact that her body is damaged because she is too small shows that she has not physically developed enogh for sex. So no five year old can be ready for sex.

I never claimed that a five year old was; I simply said that age cannot be used to determine the time at which a person is emotionally or physically mature enough for sex. In some cases, it can be used to determine when they are not ready, but it can never be used positively, which is what your OP asked.

Quote by: Rinoa It was a simple statement saying that someone holding that belief is not suited to be around children.

Based on what?