We aint commin out

[Mia]

The cute little phrase we came up with for WACO to be an acronym of. It was kind of funny until people died, now there's nothing funny about it.


To most people, it was clear. A cult armed to the hilt holding women and children, etc., was rightfully 'invaded'. The questions center on whether it was necessary for them to die. The ATF and others were under fire for how they handled it.

Some in here have said the official story is hogwash, and the handling of the final hours is not the only issue. I'm interested in hearing more from both sides of this issue.

[dotcoma]

Ooh, this could take forever. The "cult" had every right to protect themselves against the black ski masked thugs. Most of the official story is a lie. The FEDS violated every pillar of justice that this country was founded on. A good documentary on this is Alex Jones's "America: Wake Up or Waco" and "Waco: Rules of Engagement". The FBI machine gunned people as they tried to exit the building. Janet Reno and the rest of these terrorists should be behind bars. A nutshell...

[PatrickHenry]

Don't get me started...

[sixmillman]

Waco was an outrage. Total abuse of power by the ATF that took advantage of the ignorance and inexperience of Janet Reno in an attempt to further their own bureacratic agenda.

[Mia]

OK, well tell my why, if you would. I know you can post a lot of links, but would you tell me why YOU think so?

Thanks.

[sixmillman]

Real quick cause I gat to go. But here is something to think about. You remember the films, all the armed agents crouched down behind cars. They said in court that they were being shot at from the building. Yet in court the didn't produce a single car with a bullet hole or even a picture of a bullet hole. Koresh made numerous trips to town preceding the incident and could have been detained easily without the armed troops. His original violation didn't call for the "over the top" show of force by the ATF. Koresh was a nut with some lost souls listning to him. He liked guns, so do alot of people.
He had no record of using one in a crime other than purchasing one or selling one can't remember which illeagaly.
Most of the time a rat will just run away, but when cornered....
That describes Koresh a stupid redneck religious freak who talked himself and those around him into a corner. I don't really care about Koresh but I expect better and more professional behavior from Federal Law Enforcment officers. What was the name of that other guy up in Montana where the ATF came on his property shot his dog sniped his wife and son. Anybody remember?

[dotcoma]

Randy Weaver...Ruby Ridge.

[Mia]

Was that the Ruby Ridge incident?

[PatrickHenry]

These are the modern day precedents to Oklahoma City/Murrah and 9/11. Mia, you gentle lady, you shouldn't be looking in those boxes...

[sixmillman]

Here is a link
Private report

Rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic.

A RUMOR justifies 76 armed agents and helocopters

Then that February 28th morning, a reporter asked for directions from a person who was connected to the Davidians, and that person alerted Koresh.

A reporter knows there is going to be an ATF raid and blows their cover. This is why I feel that the ATF must have had some kind of agenda other than protecting the good citizens of Texas from David Koresh. Why unless you were filming an episode of "COPS" would you alert people outside your agency of a paramilitary bust? :confused:

Everyone was aware of the potential risk. Koresh's paranoia about the government as the agent of Satan didn't help matters, because the ATF's advance only proved the truth of his prophecies: they would be attacked by the Babylonians.

A releligious nut case.

Even so, no one anticipated what actually happened.

They should have. They had agents inside. Any psych 101 student could tell you the potential for bad things to happen.

Now with an embarrasing hostage situation being publicly televised what do the professional negotiators do? Get caught in a fatal deception with a mentaly imbalanced perp. They have now lost any hope of talking down the situation and the standoff begins.

over a local radio station, in the hope Koresh was listening, to let him know there would be no new attacks. Yet around 5:00 when three cultists walking outside the compound to return there from work encountered ATF agents, the shooting resumed. Agents killed one and captured one of the trio, while one got away, and officials then broadcast a request to Koresh to give up without a fight.

[The Dunedan]

This is a C&P of a reply I posted to another subject which touched on the Waco incident. Sources at the bottom, all assertions documented therein.


--On the Waco thing:
Grenade casings; You can buy these at any Army/Navy store. They are totally useless without fuses, and are popular as "complaint Dept." decorations. Besides which, as someone else has said, they were never mentioned on any of the warrants, or in the investigations which followed the incident.

Automatic weapons; there were none present. This entire thing was a canard; a "big lie" repeated until it becomes accepted as truth.

Sexual abuse; another canard. Never happened. This was admitted in a memo sent from FBI Director Louis Freech to AtGen Reno about 30 days into the standoff. It was soon after this that the "meth lab" story was cooked up; a story which was conveniantly never mentioned again once it was discovered that no such equipment existed.

"Koresh thought he was Jesus." So?

CS Tear-gas; Illegal to use in war, under Geneva and Hauge Conventions. It's not actually a gas, but a very fine spray of CS crystals mixed with Kerosene. Not only is this stuff fatal to athsmatics and small children, but it is highly flammable. Probably something to do with all that atomized K-1 floating around. When it burns, it is converted into Hydrogen Cyanide gas; given how -easily- this stuff burns, it's not exactly a surprise. Janet Reno's degree was in Chemistry in undergrad school. She KNEW what this stuff did, and still ordered it used against a building full of kids.

Casualties; all but one of the ATF casualties in the original raid were caused when these asshats panicked and started spraying wildly with armour-piercing ammo. One BATFeeb shot himself in both feet. At no point did the Davidians fire on the retreating agents. This is evidenced by the lack of bulletholes in police/ATF/FBI vehicles, as well as the lack of dust spall or plumes on video. ( Spall/plume is the dirt and debris kicked up when a bullet hits the ground. If the Davidians were firing at the BAFEebs, there'd be some on video, as the Davidians would have been firing from an elevated position at targets on the ground.)

The Fire: Ok. This one takes awhile. Imagine a largely enclosed structure, filled with highly flammable chemical agent. Now imagine that several converted M-60A3 tanks are milling around outside, knocking things over, striking sparks, and generally making neusances of themselves. Now, imagine that several Delta Force soldiers are lobbing CS grenades which use a pyrotechnic bursting charge into aforementioned gas-filled structure. Doesn't take much imagination to see how a fire could get started.
Up until this point, this entire thing could be written off as an unfortunate, criminally neglectful, accident. However, the Fed in charge that day did not call the Fire Dept. until seven minutes after the fire visibly breached the walls of the Church. When he -did- call it in, he gave instructions for the trucks to be delayed at -all- the checkpoints leading to the Church itself. By so doing, he -ensured- that the building burned to the ground, as did everyone inside. Additionally, medics who were on-scene with the ATF and HRT were not allowed to approach the building.

The Shooting; This is where it gets truly sick. The few Davidians who escaped the building reported coming under automatic-weapons fire from -outside- the structure. FLIR ( IR ) video shot by a helicopter orbiting the scene confirms this. The Clinton/Bush Justice Dept's have tried to 'test away' this theory, but conducted their 'tests' using the wrong rifles, with the wrong ammunition, and under the wrong conditions. Later, independant tests showed that the flashes in the FLIR tape were, in fact, muzzle-flash from automatic rifles. Attempts to explain away the flashes as being 'light reflected off debris' are silly at best; sunlight does not show up well on FLIR, and the flashes were of such duration and consistancy that the odds of them being randomly-reflected light, of any kind, are too long to be seriously considered.
Additonal credence is lent to this by the facts that; not only was the first casualty of this disaster Koresh's 9-mont-old daughter, shot in his arms as he answered the door, but also that a helicopter orbiting the scene when the initial raid went down expended several belts of 7.62mm ammunition firing at random into the roof of the Church; a building known to contain non-combatants and children.

The Press: Moved back a mile from the scene the morning of the fire. Accident?



So. We have a trumped-up charge used to execute a brutal raid, during which the BATFeebs manage, through their own incompetance, to injure more of their own than the Davidians do. We have a 51-day siege during which the power, water, and heat are turned off on a building full of kids. We have a fire ( possibly accidental, possibly intentional ) which the local FD is prevented from responding to, and from which the Davidians are prevented escaping, being fired upon by automatic weapons. We have the press beinc conveniantly moved out of the way. In the aftermath, we have the Davidians cleared of all charges...AND LOCKED UP ANYWAY.

For sources, please consult
"Send In the Waco Killers" and "the Balland of Carl Drega," by Vin S.
"Unintended Consequences" by John Ross. Fictional, but includes bibliography.
http://www.firearmsandliberty.com/waco.massacre.html
http://www.waco93.com/faq.htm

At best, the Waco incident was a criminally neglectful series of highly suspect 'accidents.' However, given the Fedgoons previous actions ( Ruby Ridge, Leonard Peltier, Mumia abu-Jamal, MOVE bombing, Chicago '68, etc etc etc ) I personally find the "accident" explanation to be extremely tenuous. ( sp? ) Such a confluence of events smells a lot more like an "example" being made of someone nobody'd get too worked up about (Koresh), but which would send the 'right' message to the American people, especially those of us who are more Freedom-oriented: sit down, shut up, and do as you're told. If you don't, prison is the best you can hope for.

[Mia]

That's what I can see - your last sentance there. But putting aside for the moment the eventual action taken, was there not a reason to do something about this situation?

If you have an insane cultist with women and children inside and lots of firepower, this is not good for anyone (except the insane cult leader).

[The Dunedan]

Thing is, nobody ever proved he was an 'insane cult leader.' That issue only surfaced after the whole thing turned into a massacre. According to neighbors, anyone who wanted was free to leave at any time, and did so regularly. As for the firepower issue, I have ( if reports are to be believed ) roughly approximate firepower sitting in my bedroom closet, I live with four housemates, and I'm not a threat to anyone.
The whole thing started over an allegedly unpaid $200 tax...a tax which, it turns out, nobody owed. Koresh went jogging in the town of Waco every morning; he could have been busted on his run. But ATFE decided it needed a good bust to try and regain some face after Ruby Ridge, that's why the press was along for the initial assault. It started out as simple tax-enforcement, the "insane cultist abusing 5-year-olds and cooking crank while slapping his wives around" angle didn't come out until it became clear that ATFE and the FBI were pretty much stuck.

[Mia]

mmmmmmmm, my memory is that the cult angle was reported before the situation blew up.

"Thanks to the Freedom of Information Act, we now know how ATF undercover agents investigating the case spent February 19, 1993--nine days before the raid.

They went shooting with David Koresh. He provided the ammunition, and they handed him their guns. No, I am not jesting. And yes, he knew they were agents. Click here for their report."

- Attorney Dave Hardy's Waco site.

[Mia]

Oh, man. Life was nicer when I believed the TV........

[dotcoma]

Mia, the sheriff of the town used the Davidian's land to fish. He was good friends with David's mother (as well as David). These were kind, gentle, God-fearing people. A little weird...but after April 19th, for some reason they seem a little LESS weird to me.

the "meth lab" story was cooked up; a story which was conveniantly never mentioned again once it was discovered that no such equipment existed

Nice pun. But it wasn't made up. Helicopters made a pass over the "compound" (Church) and registered heat in the kitchen. Heat in the kitchen. You can see the concern . The FEDS used the phony drug connection in order to side step Posse Commatatis.

[Mia]

Why all the firepower?

[PatrickHenry]

By ATF or the Davidians? Davidians had squat. ATF is always heavily armed. An unConstitutional tentacle of the Executive Branch. Deadly under Clinton and under Bush not any better.

[Mia]

From the site linked in this thread:

Known as the Mount Carmel Center, the place was occupied by members of an apocalyptic religious group that was led by a man named David Koresh. Rumored to be stockpiled inside was an arsenal of explosives and weapons, some of which reportedly had been illegally converted to rapid-fire automatic.

That put them under the ATF's jurisdiction. A UPS driver had tipped off the government when a package bound for Mount Carmel had broken open to reveal casings for hand grenades. While the group did earn money from gun sales and were legally allowed to trade in arms, it appeared that they weren't following protocol. Some neighbors also reported a lot of target practice.

But there was more, too, which came out in the days ahead. Linedecker claims that the local newspaper was running a series of articles about Koresh's dubious activities, entitled "The Sinful Messiah," based on accounts by defectors like Marc Breault, who later authored Inside the Cult. Breault had hired detectives to snoop around and when contacted by the ATF, he supplied a number of detailed descriptions of his former associates. He denounced Koresh, speaking of child abuse and polygamy.

This doesn't sound good so far...

So the agents got into a convoy and drove out to the barren grounds to serve their warrants and seize any illegal items. A Blackhawk helicopter from the Texas National Guard accompanied them, along with two others belonging to the ATF.

This doesn't sound unreasonable...

Everyone was aware of the potential risk. Koresh's paranoia about the government as the agent of Satan didn't help matters, because the ATF's advance only proved the truth of his prophecies: they would be attacked by the Babylonians.

Is this part untrue?