Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

brien · May 11, 2007, 01:30 pm

Quote:

Prison is not correction, it's punishment.

It is actually supposed to be both. Hence the term: Department of Corrections.

brien · May 11, 2007, 02:05 pm

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But, as many people (including myself) believe, the only way a person should recieve the DP is if that person was proven guilty without a doubt

Since death is absolute, the verdict would have to be determined upon absolute corroboration of the evidence. Keep in mind, eyewitness accounts were even used to railroad blacks in the Jim Crow south to blame them for murders caucasians committed there.

The DP needs to be abolished for the mere reason it lowers the moral people of the state to the same level as the convicted murderer, and I as a citizen, don't quite want to be there, thanks.

Perhaps we should have a special Federal prison exclusively for the solitary incarceration of those convicted of homicide. No frills, heat of no more than 50 degrees in the winter if needed, and absolutely no air conditioning for the summer. One meal daily. No entertainment. No computers. No creature comforts. No parole. Books ok. One phone call of reasonable length per week, and one reasonable visitation per month. Paints and creative materials for self expression ok so long as they can't be fashioned into weapons.

Life w/o parole in solitary confinement should mean a uncomfortable life in a living hell so as to remind them of their crime every waking hour of their life. This would serve as a real deterrent as opposed to the DP. Prisoners tire of the monotony and the boredom of their evil selves. Executing them is merely doing them a favor and is hardly a deterrent.

Abolish the death penalty yesterday.

Scribbler1 · May 11, 2007, 03:57 pm

Quote:

Quote by: brien

The DP needs to be abolished for the mere reason it lowers the moral people of the state to the same level as the convicted murderer, and I as a citizen, don't quite want to be there, thanks.

It would seem the majority disagree with you, and I'm very sure a lot of them ARE "moral people".

brien · May 11, 2007, 04:08 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Scribbler1

It would seem the majority disagree with you, and I'm very sure a lot of them ARE "moral people".

I never meant to suggest that those who disagree with the DP aren't moral. I merely meant to suggest that a "moral society" should not imitate the muderous actions of its lowest common denominator. If part of morality in society is defined as not taking a human life, then the DP lowers the morality of all law abiding citizens by the taking of a human life. I hope this makes my position more clear.

Scribbler1 · May 11, 2007, 04:56 pm

It does. But there's still a disagreement as a lot of people support it, and don't see it as either murder or sinking to the killer's level.

It's what gives life to threads like this one.

Dean_Letham · May 11, 2007, 09:07 pm

The Death Penalty should never be allowed in any part of the world for a few simple reasons.

1) As someone mentioned earlier, 2 wrongs don't make a right.

2) The person who kills the criminal can also be described as a murderer even if the death is by law, he or she is still taken another life.

3) The person may be innocent and if you only save 1 innocent life over the world by not having the death penalty then it is essential we don't have it.

4) A murderer may be mentally unwell and need help and support as he or she may not have been aware of there actions.

However if you can prove 100% that the murderer is indeed guilty and was mentally well then he has to be in prison for his full life in my opinion, taken his freedom away for the rest of his life will be a bigger punishment than the death penalty anyway. Not 1 single murderer should be allowed to leave prison after x amount of years!

Hellsea · May 14, 2007, 11:28 am

To Brien: Yes, Jail may have the name Department of Corrections, but the majority of the people who come out of jail are corrupted not currected.

On the other hand, I agree that jail should be a place for both correction and punishment. Unfortunately, the sad truth isthat it is not.

brien · May 14, 2007, 12:29 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Hellsea

To Brien: Yes, Jail may have the name Department of Corrections, but the majority of the people who come out of jail are corrupted not currected.

On the other hand, I agree that jail should be a place for both correction and punishment. Unfortunately, the sad truth isthat it is not.

I agree with you Hellsea but we have to ask the question "why"? It is obvious to me the government fails to be successful in rehabilitating criminals, something they are charged to do by the citizens of the government. The US neeeds serious prison reform, part of which is the program to rehabilitate criminals, where they are able.

Welcome to Volconvo.

Hellsea · May 18, 2007, 08:36 am

Thank you, and I also agree with you. Have you seen the articles latley, about the prison guards that beat the prisoners just for fun? I think that is horrible. When the criminals are sent to jail they arn't supposed to go there to become worse, and that's all that beatings do. It's like children. If your beat your child, then the child will start to think that is what every parent does. Then it becomes the norm. That is exactly what is happening in these jails. Beating is becoming the norm. I think that is wrong and I think it should be stopped.

brien · May 18, 2007, 09:25 am

Quote:

Quote by: Hellsea

Thank you, and I also agree with you. Have you seen the articles latley, about the prison guards that beat the prisoners just for fun? I think that is horrible. When the criminals are sent to jail they arn't supposed to go there to become worse, and that's all that beatings do. It's like children. If your beat your child, then the child will start to think that is what every parent does. Then it becomes the norm. That is exactly what is happening in these jails. Beating is becoming the norm. I think that is wrong and I think it should be stopped.

Hellsea; Unfortunately I personally know a few Corrections Officers and I have some stories from their own mouths that would make you sick. It amzes me that Americans will get rightous and indignant over torture, real or imagined, of militants who may or may not be guilty of some transgression against the US, and completely ignore the torture going on in our own domestic prisons. So you can believe those articles you read.
They are most likely very close to the truth, if not the "gospel truth". It is a national shame.

Hellsea · May 21, 2007, 03:31 am

Hey Brien,
I would really like to hear the Officer's side's of the story. I am tired of hearing that our goverment is beating these people. These criminals. I want to hear a different song. If it isn't to much trouble could you send me some of the stories? I noticed you said that they would make me sick, but I would like to find out where the truth sleeps in this bed of lies.

brien · May 21, 2007, 10:45 am

Quote:

Quote by: Hellsea

Hey Brien,
I would really like to hear the Officer's side's of the story. I am tired of hearing that our goverment is beating these people. These criminals. I want to hear a different song. If it isn't to much trouble could you send me some of the stories? I noticed you said that they would make me sick, but I would like to find out where the truth sleeps in this bed of lies.

Here is one retired officer's story:

The was a inmate incarcerated in a Connecticut prison who had been convicted of assualting a warden's daughter. This inmate was routinely beaten in a location of the prison where no one could hear his screams and cries for help. Of course they knew when he was due in court for appeals, so they left him alone before court appearances. After the court appearances, the guy was routine abused and beaten.

Just one story from the "Naked City".

There are other instances of this, but my point is that prisoners in the US are routinely abused, yet we hear no one step forward to protect their "rights", only the higher profile cases from Guantanamo.

Hellsea · May 22, 2007, 05:43 am

That is truley horrible and unexceptable. I don't think that this an issue that will be easily corrected. Many people are going to have to take a stand in order for a change to be made.

brien · May 22, 2007, 09:48 am

Quote:

Quote by: Hellsea

That is truley horrible and unexceptable. I don't think that this an issue that will be easily corrected. Many people are going to have to take a stand in order for a change to be made.

All well and good, but "the people" have to understand what is happening to become aware of the problem. These stories just don't make the media. We cast people into prison with absolutely no hope for reasonable rehabilitation.

I find it very disturbing that the media focuses upon the "rights" of suspects involved in acts of war against the US, but drop the ball for their own citizens' rights to be incarcerated in a way that is not cruel and unusual. Mind you, I am not advocating the illegal treatment of suspects abroad, but rather asking where is the same concern for those incarcerated in domestic prisons. It isn't there.

Hellsea · May 25, 2007, 03:34 am

You'r right these issues don't get enough coverage. Instead the media is worried about "who the hell broke up with who in Hollywood." Excuse my French. I don't watch the news to hear about the life troubles of someone who dosn't know their rear end from a hole in the ground. I watch the news to hear about important issues. The "Oh My God!" stuff should be talked about on "E" not on the news..... sorry, I'm ranting.

You said that you "find it very disturbing that the media"..... yeh you know the rest. I agree. I noticed that it's not just the media though. It's the whole goverment that is involved in blotting out the issues that take palce in our own prisons. And you know what.. they need to correct the issue not try and ignore it. Problems that are ignored only get worse and worse with time.

I think we should make illegal actions legal where foreign prisoners are conserned. Understand, though, that I am talking about terrorists and men along that line. I think that those murdering S.O.B's should get illegal treatment. If I was running this country I would put them in line, and give them a taste of their of poison tainted medicine. That's why I'm not president. :) I mean look at what they have done to the lives of people around the world. All the lives they have murdered, destoryed, and ripped apart.

Osborn F Enready · May 25, 2007, 03:40 am

Its not just that either, in my opinion.

People today don't comprehend force, if it comes from authority, as being wrong anymore for the most part. And far too many are too quick to put force in government hands, against the public, via laws passed by no will of the people, and with little public support.

America in particular is losing the notion of the damage force does, because we have been isolated from it too long, and lost the true cost of liberty from our daily perception.

Kuldeep · May 25, 2007, 07:45 am

Death penality should be in the extreme cases just a leave lesson for others not commit similar sinful act. In most of the cases chance for improvement should be given along with punishment.

brien · May 25, 2007, 09:47 am

Quote:

I think we should make illegal actions legal where foreign prisoners are conserned.

Hellsea; We should strive to be a moral people who respect the human rights of every world citizen. All people deserve a trial before they are condemned to any sentence. The military must follow the Geneva Protocols, even if the terrorists do not do this.

Recently we have seen AL Qaeda driven from a safe house where it left behind, its tools and literature of torture. We can not allow our military and its allies to fall into the trap of, "oh, since they do it, so will we." We are a better people than these terrorists and will be the victor over terroroism because of the rule of law. I also apply this same logic to the death penalty here in the US.

Brunhilde · May 25, 2007, 08:42 pm

*Note: I live in Australia, where the death penalty was abolished before my birth. I have never personally experienced it as part of the justice system, and am quite willing to believe personal experience makes a difference.*

Not long ago I read a report on the Death Penalty in the United States. It was published by Amnesty International, which is firmly anti-DP, and so may be biased. However, it made the following points;

1. The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. Murder rates were examined in several US states which had re-introduced the DP. The murder rates fell slightly at the time of re-introduction, but bounced back to pre-DP rates within months. If comparing states with similar populations, gun laws etc., those with the DP do not show significantly lower murder rates than those without.

2. The DP is not applied equally. The study found that minority groups and the poor were far more likely to be executed (as opposed to being condemned with the sentence later commuted) than murderers who were wealthy and/or white.

3. The DP is not a cheap option to life incarceration. When the cost of special death row accomodation and exhaustive court dates are taken into account, it is much more expensive to execute someone than to lock them up for the term of their natural life.

In my own personal opinion...

I would be very uncomfortable executing someone, because of the risk of the conviction being wrong. There have been several celebrated cases in Australia of convicted murderers being found innocent. In some cases the wrongful conviction was just one of those things; in others it was due to perjury, corrupt police, forensic incompetence or a media feeding frenzy which unduly affected the jury. In one case, the man was found innocent more than thirty years after his conviction. Of course there are cases where guilt is definitively proven, but where is the line drawn? What if the person's guilt is 99% established? 98%? How about 80%? And who, exactly, draws that line?

Osborn F Enready · May 25, 2007, 11:35 pm

The line in this nation, is supposed to be drawn by a jury of our peers, based on objective facts, evidence, logic and reasoning presented by the defendant and the prosecutors. As an individual, you have a right to face your accuser, a right to appeal to the jury, and a right to invoke your rights as enumerated in the Constitution of the United States as a citizen.

The jury determines guilt, and the percentage is a burden they bear, as equals under the laws in which they are to judge.

I support the Death Penalty if the burden of evidence is immense both in witness testimony as well as circumstantial evidence, but when either one is lacking, I don't think Death can be issued as a penalty.

Guilt is supposed to be proven beyond the shadow of doubt in the jurors.

May 11, 2007, 04:56 pm	#45 (permalink) (top)
Scribbler1 Skeptical Patriot Posts: 7,746	It does. But there's still a disagreement as a lot of people support it, and don't see it as either murder or sinking to the killer's level. It's what gives life to threads like this one. Not a day goes by that I don't see something that reinforces my belief that people are idiots.

May 25, 2007, 03:40 am	#56 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	Its not just that either, in my opinion. People today don't comprehend force, if it comes from authority, as being wrong anymore for the most part. And far too many are too quick to put force in government hands, against the public, via laws passed by no will of the people, and with little public support. America in particular is losing the notion of the damage force does, because we have been isolated from it too long, and lost the true cost of liberty from our daily perception. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

May 25, 2007, 11:35 pm	#60 (permalink) (top)
Osborn F Enready Principled Observer Location: Toledo, Ohio Posts: 13,873	The line in this nation, is supposed to be drawn by a jury of our peers, based on objective facts, evidence, logic and reasoning presented by the defendant and the prosecutors. As an individual, you have a right to face your accuser, a right to appeal to the jury, and a right to invoke your rights as enumerated in the Constitution of the United States as a citizen. The jury determines guilt, and the percentage is a burden they bear, as equals under the laws in which they are to judge. I support the Death Penalty if the burden of evidence is immense both in witness testimony as well as circumstantial evidence, but when either one is lacking, I don't think Death can be issued as a penalty. Guilt is supposed to be proven beyond the shadow of doubt in the jurors. Petition of Redress of Grievances: http://www.givemeliberty.org/default.htm Canadian Lawsuit Against Their National Banks: http://www.freewebs.com/classaction/ Osborn F. Enready

May 11, 2007, 09:07 pm	#46 (permalink) (top)
Dean_Letham Sedimentary Rock Posts: 1	The Death Penalty should never be allowed in any part of the world for a few simple reasons. 1) As someone mentioned earlier, 2 wrongs don't make a right. 2) The person who kills the criminal can also be described as a murderer even if the death is by law, he or she is still taken another life. 3) The person may be innocent and if you only save 1 innocent life over the world by not having the death penalty then it is essential we don't have it. 4) A murderer may be mentally unwell and need help and support as he or she may not have been aware of there actions. However if you can prove 100% that the murderer is indeed guilty and was mentally well then he has to be in prison for his full life in my opinion, taken his freedom away for the rest of his life will be a bigger punishment than the death penalty anyway. Not 1 single murderer should be allowed to leave prison after x amount of years!

May 14, 2007, 11:28 am	#47 (permalink) (top)
Hellsea Hellsea Location: Germany Posts: 289	To Brien: Yes, Jail may have the name Department of Corrections, but the majority of the people who come out of jail are corrupted not currected. On the other hand, I agree that jail should be a place for both correction and punishment. Unfortunately, the sad truth isthat it is not.

May 18, 2007, 08:36 am	#49 (permalink) (top)
Hellsea Hellsea Location: Germany Posts: 289	Thank you, and I also agree with you. Have you seen the articles latley, about the prison guards that beat the prisoners just for fun? I think that is horrible. When the criminals are sent to jail they arn't supposed to go there to become worse, and that's all that beatings do. It's like children. If your beat your child, then the child will start to think that is what every parent does. Then it becomes the norm. That is exactly what is happening in these jails. Beating is becoming the norm. I think that is wrong and I think it should be stopped.

May 21, 2007, 03:31 am	#51 (permalink) (top)
Hellsea Hellsea Location: Germany Posts: 289	Hey Brien, I would really like to hear the Officer's side's of the story. I am tired of hearing that our goverment is beating these people. These criminals. I want to hear a different song. If it isn't to much trouble could you send me some of the stories? I noticed you said that they would make me sick, but I would like to find out where the truth sleeps in this bed of lies.

May 22, 2007, 05:43 am	#53 (permalink) (top)
Hellsea Hellsea Location: Germany Posts: 289	That is truley horrible and unexceptable. I don't think that this an issue that will be easily corrected. Many people are going to have to take a stand in order for a change to be made.

May 25, 2007, 03:34 am	#55 (permalink) (top)
Hellsea Hellsea Location: Germany Posts: 289	You'r right these issues don't get enough coverage. Instead the media is worried about "who the hell broke up with who in Hollywood." Excuse my French. I don't watch the news to hear about the life troubles of someone who dosn't know their rear end from a hole in the ground. I watch the news to hear about important issues. The "Oh My God!" stuff should be talked about on "E" not on the news..... sorry, I'm ranting. You said that you "find it very disturbing that the media"..... yeh you know the rest. I agree. I noticed that it's not just the media though. It's the whole goverment that is involved in blotting out the issues that take palce in our own prisons. And you know what.. they need to correct the issue not try and ignore it. Problems that are ignored only get worse and worse with time. I think we should make illegal actions legal where foreign prisoners are conserned. Understand, though, that I am talking about terrorists and men along that line. I think that those murdering S.O.B's should get illegal treatment. If I was running this country I would put them in line, and give them a taste of their of poison tainted medicine. That's why I'm not president. :) I mean look at what they have done to the lives of people around the world. All the lives they have murdered, destoryed, and ripped apart.

May 25, 2007, 07:45 am	#57 (permalink) (top)
Kuldeep Kuldeep Location: Bhopa, M.P, India Posts: 1,640	Death penality should be in the extreme cases just a leave lesson for others not commit similar sinful act. In most of the cases chance for improvement should be given along with punishment.

May 25, 2007, 08:42 pm	#59 (permalink) (top)
Brunhilde Molten Ash Location: Rural Western Australia Posts: 31	Note: I live in Australia, where the death penalty was abolished before my birth. I have never personally experienced it as part of the justice system, and am quite willing to believe personal experience makes a difference. Not long ago I read a report on the Death Penalty in the United States. It was published by Amnesty International, which is firmly anti-DP, and so may be biased. However, it made the following points; 1. The death penalty is not an effective deterrent. Murder rates were examined in several US states which had re-introduced the DP. The murder rates fell slightly at the time of re-introduction, but bounced back to pre-DP rates within months. If comparing states with similar populations, gun laws etc., those with the DP do not show significantly lower murder rates than those without. 2. The DP is not applied equally. The study found that minority groups and the poor were far more likely to be executed (as opposed to being condemned with the sentence later commuted) than murderers who were wealthy and/or white. 3. The DP is not a cheap option to life incarceration. When the cost of special death row accomodation and exhaustive court dates are taken into account, it is much more expensive to execute someone than to lock them up for the term of their natural life. In my own personal opinion... I would be very uncomfortable executing someone, because of the risk of the conviction being wrong. There have been several celebrated cases in Australia of convicted murderers being found innocent. In some cases the wrongful conviction was just one of those things; in others it was due to perjury, corrupt police, forensic incompetence or a media feeding frenzy which unduly affected the jury. In one case, the man was found innocent more than thirty years after his conviction. Of course there are cases where guilt is definitively proven, but where is the line drawn? What if the person's guilt is 99% established? 98%? How about 80%? And who, exactly, draws that line?