Human organ sales

[brien]

Do you think it is moral to sell your organs to the highest bidder. The fact that there is a human organ shortage, why should the government prevent people from selling their organ(s) to the highest bidder? I need money and I have two healthy kidneys. I only require one to live. Why shouldn't I be able to sell one to another who needs it to survive? It is merely another contract between two people in trade. I need money and he/she needs the kidney. I help out by diminishing the organ shortage and also collect the money I require to function in society. Why not allow my family to sell all of them after I die to help defray the cost of my death expenses? So what's wrong with this trade? I say let the bidding begin! :)

[atheist]

it might cause criminal problems (i.e. people kidnapping others and selling their organs to a wider/easier-accessible organ market). also, i'm sure some greedy parents out there will easily pressure/guilt their children into selling organs for money.

on the other hand, there's a this-is-my-body-i-can-do-whatever-i-want-with-it thing going on.

who knows.....

[Hmm]

Quote by: atheist it might cause criminal problems (i.e. people kidnapping others and selling their organs to a wider/easier-accessible organ market). also, i'm sure some greedy parents out there will easily pressure/guilt their children into selling organs for money. on the other hand, there's a this-is-my-body-i-can-do-whatever-i-want-with-it thing going on. who knows.....

Those are my thoughts exactly. There is a problem with not having your way with your own body, but people would, I suspect, begin trying to obtain the organs of other people.

[loser]

Do you think it is moral to sell your organs to the highest bidder. The fact that there is a human organ shortage, why should the government prevent people from selling their organ(s) to the highest bidder? I need money and I have two healthy kidneys. I only require one to live. Why shouldn't I be able to sell one to another who needs it to survive? It is merely another contract between two people in trade. I need money and he/she needs the kidney. I help out by diminishing the organ shortage and also collect the money I require to function in society. Why not allow my family to sell all of them after I die to help defray the cost of my death expenses? So what's wrong with this trade? I say let the bidding begin!

Why not just sell your body AND keep it as in PROSTITUTION. The other people get what they need and you get the money you need. You can take a shower and you are no worse for the wear. If you sell internal organs, you will run out real quick. How many could you sell? Three? Four? But if you sell your body (services) and you get to keep it all intact, you can do this for years.

However, you may bring up the possibility of catching a deadly disease, like AIDS. No problem. If that happens, then you can sell ALL of your internal organs...you won't need them anymore. In the end, its all good.

Besides, I think doctors prefer animal organs (like pigs) because there is less incidence of rejection. Soon, there should be good money in pig hearts.

[brien]

Why not just sell your body AND keep it as in PROSTITUTION.

I think you have missed the point. But I will deal with the prostitution angle. Prostitution should be legal. It is silly to have it illegal because it causes more problems by having it illegal than it would if it were legal. But this isn't about prostitution.

What is wrong with directing one's family to sell their organs to the highest bidder after one dies? You have straw dogged into prostitution and AIDS but I haven't seen one logical argument against it yet.

Since one can live a perfectly normal life with only one kidney, what's wrong with selling a kidney to the highest bidder? Do you have one cogent argument against it?

[brien]

Quote by: atheist it might cause criminal problems (i.e. people kidnapping others and selling their organs to a wider/easier-accessible organ market). also, i'm sure some greedy parents out there will easily pressure/guilt their children into selling organs for money. on the other hand, there's a this-is-my-body-i-can-do-whatever-i-want-with-it thing going on. who knows.....

So which is it, good or no good? Do you really think this would result in the invasion of the body snatchers? I doubt it. There are so many positive reasons for this, why not repeal the foolish laws that restrict this activity. I haven't seen one good logical argument against it yet.

[PatrickHenry]

There is the great liability to coercion, brien.

How many people in the US are at the complete disposal of another?A small percentage, perhaps. But still a very large number.

Among these I would count prostitutes dominated by pimps, women in abusive relationships to brutal men, children of heartless parents, not to mention a cadre of those controlled by objectionable cults.

If I have complete control over you and am able to force you to my will, what is to prevent me from selling YOUR organs and taking the money for myself?

[brien]

This may be so PH, but why can't the punishment fit the crime? Because a small segment of society can be controlled by another, this is reason to not solve the human organ shortage in society? Perhaps there could be measures of punishment that would fit the crime? Pehaps the benefits to society far outweigh the risks of a minority of the population? Perhaps there could be safeguards placed upon the process to ensure it is of a person's own free will?

[PatrickHenry]

Which organ do you need, brien?

[atheist]

Quote by: brien This may be so PH, but why can't the punishment fit the crime? Because a small segment of society can be controlled by another, this is reason to not solve the human organ shortage in society? Perhaps there could be measures of punishment that would fit the crime? Pehaps the benefits to society far outweigh the risks of a minority of the population? Perhaps there could be safeguards placed upon the process to ensure it is of a person's own free will?

Ironic you mention punishments fitting the crime, especially when you take into account that some of the organ transplants that occur, happen because the patient themself had abused their own body in the first place (via smoking, drinking, drug abuse, even bad eating habits etc.). Of course, this is not always the case. But sometimes it is.

"Pehaps the benefits to society far outweigh the risks of a minority of the population?"- now that's pretty harsh, almost a bit savage in a sense. That's, in my opinion, taking advantage of the minority group, causing them grief and even more problems (in their already problematic lives), just because the more well-off people who can afford organs want to continue living their well-off lives.

Also, I doubt that this pool of use-able/abuse-able people is small. You've also got to take into account other populations. For example, the homeless, who no one will really miss if someone decides to snatch their body/organs off the streets. I mean, how many news reports do you hear about homeless people going "missing," when they're already displaced people in the first place and no one's looking for them?

"Perhaps there could be safeguards placed upon the process to ensure it is of a person's own free will?"
Ideal, but realistically this is really naive thinking.

[brien]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Which organ do you need, brien?

Ahhh Just call me Scarecrow.

I merely think that if the next of kin could authorize the sales of all healthy human organs from their deceased relatives, it would go a long way toward solving the organ shortage in the medical field today.

[brien]

"Pehaps the benefits to society far outweigh the risks of a minority of the population?"- now that's pretty harsh, almost a bit savage in a sense. That's, in my opinion, taking advantage of the minority group, causing them grief and even more problems (in their already problematic lives), just because the more well-off people who can afford organs want to continue living their well-off lives.

I am not advocating taking advantage of anyone in society. PH raised the specter that since some people are controlled by others, it could lead to abuse. All my response was saying is that there are two ways to counteract this. Punishment through criminal prosecution and safeguards to make certain the donor is ready, willing, and able. There already are safeguards in place when people donate organs. They can be used to regulate the sales as well.

Also, I doubt that this pool of use-able/abuse-able people is small. You've also got to take into account other populations. For example, the homeless, who no one will really miss if someone decides to snatch their body/organs off the streets. I mean, how many news reports do you hear about homeless people going "missing," when they're already displaced people in the first place and no one's looking for them?

I mean, how many news reports do you hear about homeless people going "missing," when they're already displaced people in the first place and no one's looking for them?

This is actuallly funny if you are serious. Do you think people can show up with a dead body and say "here, its for sale" ? Or surely you don't think they can show up with a pair of kidneys in a cooler as ask "how much for these?" Please get real..

I think your chicken little interpretation here is a bit of a stretch. I doubt all of the homeless people will go missing upon the establishment of human organ sales. Because human organ sales become legal doesn't mean people will begin to diasppear in a sinister manner. Only the family of the deceased could sell their relatives organs, and in the case of a person selling their own kidney, there could be the same safeguards applied to those who already donate them for others. There is the possibility of abuse, but this is true with anything in society. The benefits outweigh the risks and when there are abuses discovered they can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People are injured and killed everyday in automobile accidents, cars are stolen, even used for car bombs, but we don't ban cars because the risks are outweighed by the benefits gained from the automobile.

The argument that some people may be forced into the sales of their own organs is more of a over-reaction by those who don't trust people to manage themselves, or when they are incapable of doing so, do not trust those who care for them to protect them from abuse. Furthermore, most organs would probably come from the recently deceased and each person is required to have a death certificate so if there is any question as to the cause of death, it gets investigated anyway. People who are unrelated to the donor would simply be barred from being involved in the sale. These legitimate concerns pale in nature to the concern of a person who requires a liver but the family of the deceased donor is unwilling to give it up. By introducing the sales of organs, it would close the gap between the dead who don't need their organs and those who will die without them.

[atheist]

Quote by: brien I am not advocating taking advantage of anyone in society. PH raised the specter that since some people are controlled by others, it could lead to abuse. All my response was saying is that there are two ways to counteract this. Punishment through criminal prosecution and safeguards to make certain the donor is ready, willing, and able. There already are safeguards in place when people donate organs. They can be used to regulate the sales as well.

Donating is different than selling. You've got too many legal problems that can arise, loopholes, etc. Also, with money involved, the action of giving a piece of your body away will require much investigation before operation (I think, much like how transgenders must go through therapy first before getting a gender reassignment).

"Although the outright purchase of organs is illegal in nearly every country in the world, a number have black markets for living-donor organs, and the results have been frightening. A study of 305 living kidney donors in Madras (Chennai), India, found that 96 percent sold a kidney to pay off debts, receiving Rs.50, 000 or US $1,070 a piece. But 75 percent of the respondents soon faced debt and destitution once again, and 79 percent would not recommend organ selling to others. Permitting trade in organs has already led to the exploitation of the poor."
-source here

You get people regetting their decisions, all because they were too quick to jump at the opportunity to get money.
One could argue that "well it's their fault for being greedy," but that is really really insensitive to the issues that lower socio economic classes are going through. Like the quote says, it leads to exploitation of the poor.

And if a market does arise from organ selling, people will eventually start to feel that it would be okay to sell their organs without government consent. Going to shady doctors, or maybe going into the black market and selling their organs overseas via warehouse surgeries or doing it in some dirty environment......

Quote by: brien This is actuallly funny if you are serious. Do you think people can show up with a dead body and say "here, its for sale" ? Or surely you don't think they can show up with a pair of kidneys in a cooler as ask "how much for these?" Please get real...

I am serious, and it's definitely NOT funny.
Things like this happen in other countries, because there are willing buyers.
If a market becomes established for organ selling, this will mean that one will have to be established for organ buying. A wider organ buying market = more chances for illegal activity. It's common sense.

Quote by: brien I think your chicken little interpretation here is a bit of a stretch. I doubt all of the homeless people will go missing upon the establishment of human organ sales.

True, but I brought up the homeless as one possible example among many others.
Overall the system is exploiting the poor, in order for people who can afford organs reap the benefits.
This organ selling business is really chicken scratch compared to all the other health care problems out there. We should rather look for ways to stop development of some fatal organ-taking disease, rather than trying to fix the problem after its already taken root. Prevention of a disease as treatment is much more effective than trying to treat the disease after it's affected someone. For example, people could actually exercise once in a while, or stop smoking....

Quote by: brien Because human organ sales become legal doesn't mean people will begin to diasppear in a sinister manner.

Again, an organ-buying market = more room for illegal activity. Body snatching is not a non-existent problem in the world today. Because it does happen in other countries, even while it is illegal. Opening an organ-buying market will just make it worse.

Quote by: brien Only the family of the deceased could sell their relatives organs, and in the case of a person selling their own kidney, there could be the same safeguards applied to those who already donate them for others. There is the possibility of abuse, but this is true with anything in society. The benefits outweigh the risks and when there are abuses discovered they can be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. People are injured and killed everyday in automobile accidents, cars are stolen, even used for car bombs, but we don't ban cars because the risks are outweighed by the benefits gained from the automobile.

Comparing car stealing to organ stealing is not the same. Cars are inanimate, non-biological objects and have no life. They are easily replaced/duplicable. Organs are not.
I think that that statement "there is the possibility of abuse" is downplayed too much. Abuse of the system WILL happen. Even without knowing what will happen if a system arises, it's pretty apparent that the system abuses the poor. It's disgusting, in my opinion. Especially if you wave money in front of their face at such a high price, as a kidney.

Also, if a deceased person's family members can make the decision of selling that person's organs for money, without a doubt there will be cases in which family members will somehow be able to unfairly cohere the dying family member to sell their organs.
It can create a lot of grief on part of the dying person, even if they don't have that many days left in the world.
For example, you know you're going to die in a week, your parents want you to sell your organs, and guilt you into it because they say that the hospital bills are so high. So you agree to sell your organs. Believe it or not, but for some people, their bodies are sacred things and they'd like to have them in tact when they're put in the ground. Facing the decision of parting with a part of themselves can be emotionally trying and put that person into a lot of stress, especially if they feel obligated to help pay for their hospitalization. It's just too unfair towards the dying person, in this situation.

ALSO, as another case, what if, when a person agrees that after they die and they want to sell their organs, they mysteriously die a few months later? A lot of suspicion may arise from the death, including questions like, what if someone killed them for the money from selling their organs? I know it may seem like I'm blowing this out of proportion, but this -will- probably happen a few times if organ selling/buying is legalized.

Quote by: brien The argument that some people may be forced into the sales of their own organs is more of a over-reaction by those who don't trust people to manage themselves, or when they are incapable of doing so, do not trust those who care for them to protect them from abuse.

Not an overreaction. A very possible truth. Already in China (where organ selling is illegal) there are cases in which prisoners are forced to give their organs away (because the organ buying market there is much more open).
There are a lot of manipulative and mean people out there. To be so optimistic as to believe that this system will work so smoothly is really naive.

Quote by: brien Furthermore, most organs would probably come from the recently deceased and each person is required to have a death certificate so if there is any question as to the cause of death, it gets investigated anyway. People who are unrelated to the donor would simply be barred from being involved in the sale.

Okay, so what if I'm enstranged from my family, but somehow end up dead on their couch? Even if people are related to one another it doesn't mean that they will respect one anothers' death wishes. My dad wants to be cremated with his ashes scattered over some cliff, but when he dies he's going to be buried next to my mother, case closed.
Even with related-ness in the equation, it doesn't mean that the dead relative in question will not be exploited by living relatives.

Quote by: brien These legitimate concerns pale in nature to the concern of a person who requires a liver but the family of the deceased donor is unwilling to give it up. By introducing the sales of organs, it would close the gap between the dead who don't need their organs and those who will die without them.

Shortages are shortages. Tough. People in Darfur/S.Korea/whathaveyou are dying from shortages of food that people in America are in excess of.
People die everyday. It's sad of course. But organ selling should be the least of our concerns on the list of things to get through. Organ selling/buying also creates too many legal and moral problems anyway, and would create a distraction from issues that people today really need to pay attention to (such as global warming! what's the point of helping people live longer lives, when we'll all die from a depletion of ozone (which = radiation leakage into the environment) anyway?).

[Duke1985]

I can get a nice chunk of change for just one testicle, pretty sure thats legal too. Does that count? If it does count as organ selling, I might be for, not that I've sold one of my boys, I just like to keep the option open.

[Slevin57]

The way I see it, you are allowed to donate your bone marrow, blood and kidney's to people that need them. (for free). Since, most people do not do this willingly.....doing it for money seems to invite the kind of people that would manipulate the system.

I almost gave bone marrow one day, but something was too low to do it.

I can't give blood, it's a shame because I have the most compatible type.

I guess it depends on the kind of position you are in.

[Duke1985]

I don't look at selling one of my nuts to be manipulating the system, my nut won't save anyone's life. So I'd be selling it to science I believe.

If you can donate it I don't see why shouldn't be able to sell it.
If little Timmy Moneybag's parents think he needs a new kidney and shouldn't have to wait in line for one, they could go right to source pay a sum of money, and get little Timmy's kidney.
It would allow people to jump those long lists that most people never get to the top of.