Ban Blood Sports

[Gods_Mercenary]

Not to me! I am going to have me a barbeque pork sandwich!

My God, pulled pork mixed with barbecue, ohhhhhhhh. I don't know if I could be a vegetarian.

[another day]

Banning anything in which two parties willingly participate in is inherently evil and wrong.

If you don't like them, as I don't, don't watch/attend them and don't participate in them.

[Gods_Mercenary]

I don't know about that, torturing dogs is not my idea of two accepting parties. I don't think that it is evil or wrong to want dogs not to be tortured or people to throw their lives away with drugs, whether banning is the solution is another story.

[christibe]

The last time I cried over an animal I was 11 and my brother's hamster was suffering before it died. Hell, you don't cry when you talk about Darfur, why should you cry when animals are treated the same way? We should try to stop being cruel to members of our own species before we worry about animals (like that'll ever happen)

what makes you think that i don't cry when i talk about darfur?

[Gods_Mercenary]

True, I've never debated you on darfur, but do you seriously cry when talking about it in passing? I mean, you couldn't go through a news cast without breaking into fits of utter sobbing every 15 minutes with that level of sensitivity.

[christibe]

I don't know about that, torturing dogs is not my idea of two accepting parties. I don't think that it is evil or wrong to want dogs not to be tortured or people to throw their lives away with drugs, whether banning is the solution is another story.

Agreed. This isn't just a matter of personal preference, and there is legal precedence which supports the illegality of dog-fights.

[christibe]

True, I've never debated you on darfur, but do you seriously cry when talking about it in passing? I mean, you couldn't go through a news cast without breaking into fits of utter sobbing every 15 minutes with that level of sensitivity.

not saying that this is my usual operational mode... but today there was a dead bird on the sidewalk outside of my work (which I saw on my cigarette break) and I did cry because the bird had probably suffered a great deal just before its death (there was a pretty massive thunderstorm with very high winds all morning)... I cried, and then gave it a more respectful resting place.


There is a reason I have eliminated from my daily life a good number of people that are politically aware enough to speak on our modern day tragedies... I just haven't been able to deal with much of anything since Hurricane Katrina, Darfur, and every other way nature- very limitedly, or especially people like to kill people cruelly and without regard of any sort to humanity. So, there is a reason why I don't talk about those, one it does nothing to better the situation, and two, i will break-down from the atrocity and my feeling of helplessness towards bettering the situation. Also, I don't get my news from the tv anyway, not for a while, but mostly for a laugh at things like Fox news.


But anyway, my inability to emotionally deal with those things is not on topic.

[Gods_Mercenary]

True enough, I guess I'm just an emotionally numb alpha male type. Anyway, a cultural change is needed, simply making dog-fighting illegal is not going to solve anything (look at drugs) There needs to be a more concerted effort on the part of activists to portray animals as feeling beings, not just demonizing the perpetrators, which often happens, usually when you call someone horrible names they turn off and get entrenched, hell, they might dogfight just to spite you. The way to go about it is sowing sympathy for animals, not antipathy towards the people.

[christibe]

True enough, I guess I'm just an emotionally numb alpha male type.

I am strangely jealous.

Anyway, a cultural change is needed, simply making dog-fighting illegal is not going to solve anything (look at drugs) There needs to be a more concerted effort on the part of activists to portray animals as feeling beings, not just demonizing the perpetrators, which often happens, usually when you call someone horrible names they turn off and get entrenched, hell, they might dogfight just to spite you. The way to go about it is sowing sympathy for animals, not antipathy towards the people.

Agreed. The trouble with portraying animals in that sense might give people a false idea that the group opposing the sport feels that animals are moral agents. This isn't true, of course. Despite that, animals, and dogs in this case, have similar biological construction to us. Therefore, they can feel pain. And, unfortunately, we have evidence that supports that an animal can "feel" lonely, bored, and eventually go insane after periods of captivity that both lack social interaction bare and confining living spaces alone, and also when placed in a room with others of their species that they can hear and possibly see, but not interact with AND when their only reprieve from this isolation is interaction with humans who treat them in cruel fashion see monkeys used in medical research, as one piece of empirical data. When animals are kept in these sorts of conditions, they develop very uncommon and inappropriate mannerisms such as pigs in factory farms that persistently bang their heads against the bars of their cages out of utter and constant boredom and confinement, or, see the monkeys in labs who take to spinning in circles in their cages from the same, or, see the average companion animal left even for such a short time as a weekend in a dog kennel take to rubbing his muzzle against the bars. It is so common and expected that vets usually preempt the harm in this behavior by providing antibiotic rub to the animal and to the 'owner' upon pickup.

So, nobody, hopefully, argues that animals FEEL and EXPERIENCE fear, loneliness and boredom like we do. Animals are not us, and so they are not moral agents. However, it is evidenced that they react to situations in possibly emotional ways. So, we know that we are not at least considering machines, they are actually functioning at a level of self-awareness and know the difference between social interaction and isolation. These things, (and others that would just make me tie up this thread even more than I already have) but these things can allow us to at least consider animals with sensitivity and maybe even empathy. So, stating that it is possible for us to be cruel to animals is a very valid claim. And hopefully that claim will become more evident to people as that is the true way to end the suffering of animals.


But, with something as cruel and pointless as dog-fighting... it would take a person with a complete inability to rationalize the animal being tortured, and history shows that when faced with people who lack an ability to rationalize the question at hand, it usually must be prohibited to them in order to at least keep the section of society in question safe from their lack of reason. This is why there are any animal cruelty laws in effect in the states (in the U.S., at least) And, as with all other prohibitive legislation there will be an underground industry that violates the law. That is to be expected, and the violator will have the opportunity to make amends with the community when they are caught and found guilty. That is why there are states that consider varying forms of animal abuse a criminally punishable offense. (I also personally find it interesting that a commonality amongst anti-social disorder and sociopathy is a tendency to abuse, torture and kill animals for no practical reason. It is viewed as an uncommon trait in some to see no moral or ethical relevance in willful and deliberate mistreatment of other species.) I will let that implication stand as it is in regards to human participators in blood-sports.

[StrongHeartsWin]

True enough, I guess I'm just an emotionally numb alpha male type. Anyway, a cultural change is needed, simply making dog-fighting illegal is not going to solve anything (look at drugs)

Cultural changes can be ushered in with the force of law. The U.S. no longer has a culture of slave owners and those enslaved. Law can definitely affect culture. And that is why many cockfighters are crying about the new laws banning their beloved sport -- they see it as a killing of their culture on that point.

The way to go about it is sowing sympathy for animals, not antipathy towards the people.

Doing the former one brings charges of anthropomorphism. Not doing the latter then miscreants are left unexposed for their dispicable behaviour.

Both have ways are the best mix, along with political pressure and legal activism in the courts -- and all those have been winning gains for animals. The trend is one of success.

If you have any doubt, just take a look at the Humane Society of the United States. They are one of the largest grassroots activist orgs in the world with over 10 million members, a yearly operating budget of over 100 million dollars, and additional funds of over 250 million dollars to use at their disposal. They have been influential on a number of animal issues at many levels and have used a mix of all those tactics above to gain victories.

[Zeebadee]

Let's just ban everything that offends anyone. I'm sure society will run much more smoothly when no one is ever offended, maybe an amendment to the Constitution is in order. Just give everyone the right to never be offended.

[christibe]

Let's just ban everything that offends anyone. I'm sure society will run much more smoothly when no one is ever offended, maybe an amendment to the Constitution is in order. Just give everyone the right to never be offended.

Really Zeebadee? I am surprised by your post, it seem uncharacteristic. fyi- I am not in confusion regarding sarcasm. I am just surprised...