Make organ donation compulsory

[Praxius]

Quote by: Kamehameha34 Ah, I was looking forward to this I agree that smoking bans are unconstitutional, but I'm not complaining about them :)

I am.

I live in the most restricted province relating to smoking in Canada. A flurry of more laws came about this past month, where not only can you not smoke inside of public places, you now can no longer smoke within a certain distance from an entrance, you can not smoke out on public patios and decks, Smoking rooms are no longer permitted...... basically the only things you can not be fined for now, is smoking in your own home, and smoking out in a field.

Hell, I think weed has less restrictions here then tobacco does. They are also talking about banning smoking inside vehicles now too..... I crap you not.

The thing I don't get is this is all about protecting people from second hand smoke, and blah blah blah..... but for f'z sake, you can't even smoke out on a patio/deck where there is continual fresh air flowing.

Like.... you're gonna have more second hand smoke coming from passing cars then you are from one person smoking one cig on a deck.

Even before I started smoking (Just about a month ago) I knew these laws were pretty far out there.

[Osborn F Enready]

pikatore said: illogical? it is logic alone that is behind my argument. tell me how there my argument lacks a logical base.

*The nation I live in, takes as self-evident and inherant individual rights, both in law and tradition.
*You have yet to show how this is beneficial, except in emotional gain from keeping people alive longer, not showing any other facts about what impact it would have on the systems in place, both economic and social.
*You deny human nature that doesn't exactly match your own subjective view, while the one that exists (or I should say was MEANT to exist, and is being dismantled) provides an option for all those forms of human nature.

[Osborn F Enready]

Kameha said: Ah, I was looking forward to this I agree that smoking bans are unconstitutional, but I'm not complaining about them

Well, then you understand why I would view people who hold your very attitude and mentality as a threat to my person, my liberty, and my way of life?

I'm glad we're clear there.

[brien]

but since everybody's life is different, and there are already plenty of people who are willing to donate their organs, it doesn't seem right for it to become mandatory

I think I should be able to dictate in my last will and testament that my organs should be sold to the higest bidder. Not than anyone would perhaps want them. However, I have an idea the nanny staters have made this illegal.

[brien]

I agree that smoking bans are unconstitutional

Not so fast there. Although I disagree with government bans upon smoking in bars and restaurants, see this article in today's Norwich Bulletin in Connecticut. Another nail in the coffin at the state level.

Norwich Bulletin - www.norwichbulletin.com - Norwich, Conn.

Connecticut's ban on smoking will stay
By LIZ MUGAVERO
Norwich Bulletin

The Connecticut Supreme Court upheld the state's smoking ban in restaurants and bars Monday, rejecting a claim exempting private clubs and the state's two tribal casinos violated the rights of businesses affected by the law. The 4-1 ruling by the state's highest court upholds a 2003 law that banned smoking in bars and restaurants, but not in private clubs or the casinos.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Pikatore illogical? it is logic alone that is behind my argument. tell me how there my argument lacks a logical base.

In addition to Osborn's points, I would point out that you support property rights with regards to finances but not with regards to organs, when you can't prove that money is any more valuable to the owner than organs. Add hypocritical to the list.

[brien]

Quote by: The Bacon Guy In addition to Osborn's points, I would point out that you support property rights with regards to finances but not with regards to organs, when you can't prove that money is any more valuable to the owner than organs. Add hypocritical to the list.

I would add that organs are probably more valuable than money. Picture this:

A rich fellow needs a kidney, without which, he will die. He has all of the money needed to buy the kidney but if there is no kidney available, all of the money in the world won't buy a kidney that isn't available to him. Let's further postulate that I have a kidney available but my brother needs it as well. My brother has no money but I love him. The rich guy offers me all of his money for the kidney which I have promised to my brother. The rich fellow can't buy my kidney but neither can my brother. So in conclusion, the kidney is worth more than money because the guy with money can't buy it and the guy without money can't either, yet the penniless man gets the kidney. Conclusion: Organs can be worth more than money. Go figure. :)

[kubedawg]

Quote by: loser Organ donation should be made a crime and ANY doctors attempting to transplant organs should have their licenses revoked and be made to do mandatory forced labor in prison. It's time to put Frankenstein to rest. The only possible exception should be the donation of organs to the institutional kitchens as food supplements. Good grief...you people are sick.

lawl, im not sure if there was sarcasm or wittyness to your post, but i sure laughed.

anywho, with cloning coming around the bend and probably existing in my lifetime, i will not donate. who wants my used parts when they can develop new ones? i mean, if someone has a problem with putting cloned parts in one's body, then why do so many people allow doctors to put metal and other types of material in their bodies? Only when it becomes a necessity, do people realize the benefit of emerging technology.

[pikatore]

I'm sure many of you will need to actually have some sort of organ failure and sit in hospital, PRAYING that someone is unselfish enough to give up thier organs, and face death in the face to realise my point of view. All I hear is blabber about property rights, when its obvious that organs are in a completely different league compared to money.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Pikatore I'm sure many of you will need to actually have some sort of organ failure and sit in hospital, PRAYING that someone is unselfish enough to give up thier organs, and face death in the face to realise my point of view.

Appeal to emotion is generally considered poor form when it comes to debate.

Quote by: Pikatore All I hear is blabber about property rights, when its obvious that organs are in a completely different league compared to money.

That is only obvious to you. It is not self evident to the people whose opinions matter: the people from whom you are proposing organ theft. Your personal opinion of how they use their organs doesn’t matter any more than your opinion of how they use their other property.

[The Dunedan]

I'm sure many of you will need to actually have some sort of organ failure and sit in hospital, PRAYING that someone is unselfish enough to give up thier organs, and face death in the face to realise my point of view.

Considering that I currently carry a NHM order, this is a moot point.

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: brien I would add that organs are probably more valuable than money. Picture this: A rich fellow needs a kidney, without which, he will die. He has all of the money needed to buy the kidney but if there is no kidney available, all of the money in the world won't buy a kidney that isn't available to him. Let's further postulate that I have a kidney available but my brother needs it as well. My brother has no money but I love him. The rich guy offers me all of his money for the kidney which I have promised to my brother. The rich fellow can't buy my kidney but neither can my brother. So in conclusion, the kidney is worth more than money because the guy with money can't buy it and the guy without money can't either, yet the penniless man gets the kidney. Conclusion: Organs can be worth more than money. Go figure. :)

Much more accurate to say that your brother's life is worth more than money. Or is it? Let's turn this around. You don't have a kidney you can donate to your brother, but you can buy it from someone else. How much would you be willing to pay for it? $1,000,000? $1,000,000,00? If it's even possible to get loans this large for non-business purposes, getting this money would place you in bondage to a money lender for the rest of your life. Would you be willing to do that for your brother? I know I wouldn't. I'd be like, "See ya in the afterlife, Chuck."

[Morgan_Freeman]

Quote by: pikatore Make organ donation on death compulsory. You save more lives.

Save more lives than what? Than legalizing voluntary sale of organs? I think not.

Quote by: pikatore First point. From a purely economical point of view, its a horrible waste letting a dead person's body rot away in a grave, complete with organs that could be used for someone who still needs them.

Which is why we should lift the ban on organ sales.

Quote by: pikatore Secondly, it is an altruistic gesture (in a sense), since through your death, you are helping other people live or enjoy a better quality of life.

It's not "altruistic" if you're forced to do it.

[pikatore]

[quote=The Bacon Guy;338093]Appeal to emotion is generally considered poor form when it comes to debate.

I don't need you to tell me the quality of my debating form. Nitpick with someone else.

Quote by: The Bacon Guy That is only obvious to you. It is not self evident to the people whose opinions matter: the people from whom you are proposing organ theft. Your personal opinion of how they use their organs doesn’t matter any more than your opinion of how they use their other property.

I'm not proposing organ theft. I'm proposing a system that makes use of things that otherwise will rot away in the dirt. And the whole superstitious side of it isn't valid. Maybe we should start banning ownership of black cats, since many people are frightened of them.

[The Bacon Guy]

Quote by: Pikatore I don't need you to tell me the quality of my debating form. Nitpick with someone else.

It’s hardly nitpicking. If you don’t want your fallacies to be pointed out, don’t post them.

Quote by: Pikatore I'm not proposing organ theft. I'm proposing a system that makes use of things that otherwise will rot away in the dirt.

You say potato…

Quote by: Pikatore And the whole superstitious side of it isn't valid. Maybe we should start banning ownership of black cats, since many people are frightened of them.

Red herring. I am not proposing that organ donation should be banned; I am arguing that it should be down to personal choice, just as owning a black cat should be down to personal choice.

[GHook93]

Quote by: pikatore Make organ donation on death compulsory. You save more lives. First point. From a purely economical point of view, its a horrible waste letting a dead person's body rot away in a grave, complete with organs that could be used for someone who still needs them. Secondly, it is an altruistic gesture (in a sense), since through your death, you are helping other people live or enjoy a better quality of life. I think we should start pulling away from old-fashioned ideologies and stubborn insistence on things such as rights (should dead people have rights in that sense?!) and realise that it would be a massive help to the health system.

While I can;'t agree with making it mandatory (maybe instead of opting in to donate your organs, you must opt out to make sure your organs are not donated).

However, your dead why do you need them. Even if you believe in an after-life you can't surely believe you take your body with you. If someone does not elect to donate their organs they need to check their morality, selfishness and intelligence.

[Praxius]

Quote by: pikatore I'm sure many of you will need to actually have some sort of organ failure and sit in hospital, PRAYING that someone is unselfish enough to give up thier organs, and face death in the face to realise my point of view. All I hear is blabber about property rights, when its obvious that organs are in a completely different league compared to money.

You're right.... they are in a different league..... my organs are my own friggin organs and no amount of money will deter me into giving them up for some rich asshole who needs a kidney so they could live a little longer and get more money.

Will I be in a hospital with a failed organ? Who knows.... but if it comes, I'll just have to do my best. Just because you'll be in the hospital begging for someone's organs, doesn't mean the rest of us will.

And if someone does want an organ, or if I changed my mind and I needed an organ, I'd rather have one from someone who voluntarily gave it up, rather then one that was taken, which is the point I'm trying to get across.... making it mandatory isn't right.

[Gods_Mercenary]

Quote by: pikatore I'm sure many of you will need to actually have some sort of organ failure and sit in hospital, PRAYING that someone is unselfish enough to give up thier organs, and face death in the face to realise my point of view. All I hear is blabber about property rights, when its obvious that organs are in a completely different league compared to money.

I would face death, if I was unable to recieve one, knowing that my organs will not be stolen, but used as I and my heirs wish. By the way, a person dying of organ failure's objectivity is irrepareably marred, and therefore unfit to make this sort of decision.

[Jern_Sandyer]

Quote by: pikatore Make organ donation on death compulsory. You save more lives. First point. From a purely economical point of view, its a horrible waste letting a dead person's body rot away in a grave, complete with organs that could be used for someone who still needs them. Secondly, it is an altruistic gesture (in a sense), since through your death, you are helping other people live or enjoy a better quality of life. I think we should start pulling away from old-fashioned ideologies and stubborn insistence on things such as rights (should dead people have rights in that sense?!) and realise that it would be a massive help to the health system.

No and due to a logic near yours. When I go into the ground I am returning nutrients to the soil which I have taken away in my life. Also do you think that if you have the right blood type we should be forced to give blood or give up a lung or kidney. We do after have two of each.

[Osborn F Enready]

pikatore said: I'm not proposing organ theft. I'm proposing a system that makes use of things that otherwise will rot away in the dirt. And the whole superstitious side of it isn't valid. Maybe we should start banning ownership of black cats, since many people are frightened of them.

Maybe we should stop trying to vicariously run peoples lives via the point of the law enforcement gun? hmmm? huh?

There are a lot of people who VOLUNTARILY give up organs. Why do you wish to rob their noble deeds, and kindness with the force of a gun?

Why do so many resort to violence to achieve their goals, via the law, with their little pet grievances that seek to rob and oppress?