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Oct 13, 2003, 12:35 am
| #42 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | "but my opinion on abortion is effected by my personal beliefs right? I'm not saying I can prove to you what the "law" should be by my religious beliefs; but it affects my opinion." So, if you don't wan't an abortion, don't get one. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. |
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Oct 13, 2003, 12:56 am
| #44 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | Just because your belief dictates that you view fetuses as newborns doesn't make them so. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. |
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Oct 13, 2003, 02:50 pm
| #47 (permalink) (top) | |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | Quote:
. . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. | |
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:10 pm
| #48 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | You asserted, "I was responding to the comment that PBA is used as birth control. PBA is not performed lightly and hardly ever on a live, viable fetus." Barbara Boxer would disagreed with you, as per her comments during the recent PBA ban debates in the Senate. She characterized the procedure as the most commonly used method to abort infants from approximately the sixteenth week (of their lifetime) to term. Taking the age of viability to be 22 to 24 weeks from the beginning of the infant's lifetime, that would amount to approxiamtely 10,000 viable babies aborted per year. You might characterize those 10,000 babies as 'hardly ever' statistics, but I don't. That's more than a whole lot of towns have as population! As Senator Brownback testified, of the 186 partial birth killings in Kansas in 2000, not one was done on a dead baby or an unhealthy baby or in order to save the life of the woman in whose body the baby was receiving life support. THAT indicates that 186 alive infants were terminated (read killed for profit) as a way to prevent live birth when their lives did not threaten the life of the woman presenting that child to the abortionist. I call that extreme birth control. You can speciously characterize it any way you choose. I think the American people will see through the specious rhetoric as the truth unfolds. |
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Oct 13, 2003, 06:18 pm
| #49 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | To rebelwithanAK: Is the prenatal alive? Is the prenatal a human? Have prenatals of age 22 weeks from the beginning of their life been born and lived? ... Want to tell us what the differences are between prenatal infants and born infants? [HINT: now's your chance to be an abortion champion, to tell us how the mother's body breaths for and nourishes the alive prenatal infant (though you must know that the woman's body builds none of the tissues and organs of the other individual inside her womb); now's your chance to excuse serial killing of fellow human beings in the womb because they are on life support from their mothers by no choice of theirs and a conscious choice by their mother (except in cases of rape or parthenogenesis, and we haven't seen a human being born from parthenogenesis is a looong time). Now's your chance to try and dehumanize the unborn based on choice to end the life of an already alive fellow human being because that fellow individual little girl or little boy is an inconvenience or a good source of fetal tissues for research and development. Have at it, champion. Lock and load, and keep a spare 30 round clip handy, hero.] |
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Oct 13, 2003, 08:25 pm
| #50 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | Yeah, fetuses are not infants. There is no such thing as a prenatal infant. Infant: A child up to 2 years (24 months) of age. Child: A person between birth and puberty. Fetus: The unborn offspring from the end of the 8th week after conception until birth. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. |
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Oct 13, 2003, 10:14 pm
| #51 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | The surgeons who perform intrauterine surgery on the little ones like Samuel Armas (24 weeks, spinal closure to treat spina bifida) would laugh at your sphincter tightened reliance upon soulless definitions. Scientists have done brainwave studies that prove the prenatal little ones even dream while in the womb and they have proven that they learn while yet unborn. You've not done an even fair job of championing the dehumanization you approve. Try again. I'm very patient. |
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Oct 13, 2003, 11:40 pm
| #52 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333 | Until birth? Rebel you have a strange way of looking at the birth process. In your words; the fetus slides out the birth canal and as crown of head pushes into open air Presto! It becomes a baby! Please, you sickening baby killers try to cover up what is reality with medical jargon such as Termination for killing a defenceless innocent human being and placing a lot of suspicious importance on calling it a fetus, to take away recognition of the baby as a human. But you don't like Capital punishment right? Twisted lunatics. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 12:10 am
| #53 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | Yeah, a fetus is a live being. It's not an independent being, but it's a live being. A fish is a live being, too. Munch, munch. You're a funny one to talk about murder, Fallen Angel, being so damned happy to lay the hurt on so many people in the Middle East. But yes, I can vouch for the death of a fetus while still holding life as sacred. It's not that hard a concept - Killing can and will always happen, but killing without reason, compunction or forethought is evil. Give thanks to that cow for giving up its live in order to be so damned delicious, and to fit well for that matter. Hell, give thanks for the dead fetus by making a use out of it for stem cell research, and stop worrying about the morality of its host for aborting it for whatever reason - inability to care, rape, physical problems, etc. The needs of the mother, as far as I'm concerned - and this, I believe, is the most tolerant view - ALWAYS trump the unborn. The government should not - and does not - legislate based on morality. The existence of a death penalty attests to that. But, however, it DOES legislate on the defense and welfare of its citizens, that potential mother being one of them. Would you force mothership on your girlfriend? Why should the government? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 12:18 am
| #54 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | withanAK pontificated, "The needs of the mother, as far as I'm concerned - and this, I believe, is the most tolerant view - ALWAYS trump the unborn." Why just the alive, individual unborn?... Because of dependence for life support? If that's the case, you've not thought this through, champion. You can apply the same 'logic' to the crib-bound infant, since they also are a big (in fact, bigger) demand on the life of the woman. Why stop with the prenatal alive human beings? [And please, keep up this thoughtless pontificating, because it is so instructional in exposing the vacuous nature of this line of specious, selfish, inhumane thinking that supports the serial killing defense mentality.]. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 12:24 am
| #55 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (,--) Would you force mothership on your girlfriend? Why should the government? withanAK <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Uh, it's 'motherhood' (and fatherhood) and it begins at implantation of the newly conceived individual human life ... and if the sexual activity that brought that new life into existence was consentual then the woman and man have the responsibility to the newly conceived, innocent individual human life. I don't see that as force unless the conception occurred via rape. If you'd like to discuss that eventuality, then I'll be glad to do so. And you'll note that none of my responses to you, or my reasoning on these issues, has been religious in nature, so don't play juvenile games of bait and switch and misdirection. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 12:35 am
| #56 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) You're a funny one to talk about murder, Fallen Angel, being so damned happy to lay the hurt on so many people in the Middle East. But yes, I can vouch for the death of a fetus while still holding life as sacred. People in the Middle east? In some cases they sponsor terrorism, Palestine, Syria etc they bring their own death apon themselves, a developing baby is innocent of any crime, and a doctor who aborts one for non medical reasons is a murderer. The government should not - and does not - legislate based on morality. The existence of a death penalty attests to that. But, however, it DOES legislate on the defense and welfare of its citizens, that potential mother being one of them. Would you force mothership on your girlfriend? Why should the government?<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You have a funny concept of Morality, murderers should not be executed, unborn babys should. Twisted. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 11:52 am
| #57 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739 | Fallen Angel, I repeat this again, as I shall repeat it a million times: "Unborn baby" is a contradiction in terms. The reason the baby isn't born 20 weeks into the pregnancy is because it isn't a baby then. Stop holding court to medieval values, stop holding court ro racist beliefs, and stop writing out posts in BOLD. tnphydeaux, believe it or not, there are people in this world that have sex for purely pleasurable feelings. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. |
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Oct 14, 2003, 12:28 pm
| #58 (permalink) (top) |
| Molten Ash Posts: 63 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Fallen Angel, I repeat this again, as I shall repeat it a million times: "Unborn baby" is a contradiction in terms. The reason the baby isn't born 20 weeks into the pregnancy is because it isn't a baby then. Stop holding court to medieval values, stop holding court ro racist beliefs, and stop writing out posts in BOLD. tnphydeaux, believe it or not, there are people in this world that have sex for purely pleasurable feelings.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> You are factually wrong, as the physicians who treat these tiny patients in utero and in neonatal intensive care wards will attest (read their surgical notes; the entries reference 'the little boy, the little girl, the little one, the baby, the infant'). The earliest preemie so far was born at 21 weeks and is now a toddler in good standing. If you want to take a purely legalise position to define the unborn individual human beings, then stick to it and don't switch in mid-stream to a moral perspective you disagree with. Until removal from the woman's body and cutting of the umbilicus, the alive individual human being is not granted the legal title of citizen. Medically, the definition of citizen (and thus due all Constitutional rights) is applied to the legal environment, but even that is eroding away, with laws that address fetal homicide. Your desire to dehumanize the alive prenatal individuals belies your desire to remain locked into tunnel vision, to support what you appear to need to believe, rather than address the truth of the unborn. I'm on the same page regarding the pleasure of sex ... to relieve my wife of the medically weighty use of contraceptive pills, I had a vasectomy decades ago. So, how do you plan to support killing alive prenatals with the assertion that some folks have sex for the fun of it? |
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Oct 15, 2003, 12:42 am
| #59 (permalink) (top) |
| Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) Fallen Angel, I repeat this again, as I shall repeat it a million times: "Unborn baby" is a contradiction in terms. The reason the baby isn't born 20 weeks into the pregnancy is because it isn't a baby then. Stop holding court to medieval values, stop holding court ro racist beliefs, and stop writing out posts in BOLD. tnphydeaux, believe it or not, there are people in this world that have sex for purely pleasurable feelings.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'll stop holding court to my beliefs when you stop trying to ram your PC thought police beliefs down peoples throats. |
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Oct 15, 2003, 03:37 am
| #60 (permalink) (top) |
| projects himself Posts: 130 | </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (RebelWithanAK,) "Unborn baby" is a contradiction in terms. The reason the baby isn't born 20 weeks into the pregnancy is because it isn't a baby then. <hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> no, but that doesn't mean it is not alive. a toddler isn't a toddler until he/she reaches that stage. a baby isn't a baby until they reach that stage. That holds no bearing on weather or not they are alive, however. Weather or not they are living on their own is a seperate debate, why don't you call it a parasite and suck the shit out of its brain or something eh? ....great idea...... |
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