Innate wrongness

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I thought about child molestation, but then there is...supposedly, some aspects of traditional Hawaian culture.

A calumny. Documentation if you accuse, please...or else retract.

Quote by: Isherwood I believe even Noah had sex with his children...

Based upon what, Isherwood? Your faith in the Bible? Your faulty knowledge of it? Get a clue...there is no story about Noah screwing his kids...

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Patrick Henry A calumny. Documentation if you accuse, please...or else retract.

My source was some NAMBLA guy who went into detailed explanation about how Hawaiian grandparents would fondle their grandchildren. It was really gross. I am sure I can find documentation for that rumor if look hard enough - but that would not prove it true, and would be a rather unpleasant effort. How about if I just point to ancient Greek culture instead. NAMBLA types love pointing out that man-boy sexual acts were considered normal then. I doubt this, myself. But it may have been considered acceptable in some strata of society.

[PatrickHenry]

Quote by: Captain Chaos My source was some NAMBLA guy who went into detailed explanation about how Hawaiian grandparents would fondle their grandchildren. It was really gross. I am sure I can find documentation for that rumor if look hard enough - but that would not prove it true, and would be a rather unpleasant effort. How about if I just point to ancient Greek culture instead. NAMBLA types love pointing out that man-boy sexual acts were considered normal then. I doubt this, myself. But it may have been considered acceptable in some strata of society.

Thank you for retracting the groundless accusation against the Hawaiians. I have never encountered this rumor and have lived in Hawaii for twenty years.

[Captain Chaos]

No, Patrick, I did not really retract what I said. I just wanted to drop the topic to avoid an ugly confrontation.

I did not make this up, and neither did the NAMBLA guy, who, despite his rather disturbing proclivities was also a PhD and researcher into this topic. He is certainly a biased source, but I later checked out and confirmed some of what he said after we interviewed him.

If you really want to know about this, look up: Milton Diamond, "Selected Cross-Generational Sexual Behavior in Traditional Hawai'i: A Sexological Ethnography."


I imagine you would have to dig article out of a library, or buy it from the publisher.

Since the only point of this was to demonstrate that some cultures have accepted so-called intergenerational sex, I really see no reason to press the issue.

Ancient Greece is a good enough example.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: PatrickHenry Based upon what, Isherwood? Your faith in the Bible? Your faulty knowledge of it? Get a clue...there is no story about Noah screwing his kids...

I do believe that Isherwood is along the right lines, though it may not be Noah, I believe something along the line happened and is thought to be mentioned in the Bible.

Leithart.com | Noah's nakedness

also

The Bible Unmasked

and also those average people who concur

"Lot's chaste daughters at incest wild"? - Literature Network Forums


Yes, Isherwood was a bit off with his comment, however he is not entirely incorrect.

However let us not look at the issue with face value and say that Incest is immoral. Let us instead look at what is moral which would be Honor and Preservation. In those days if Lot did not bear a son to continue his family then his entire family would be reguarded with dishonor and the family name could not continue. Therefore we see that while the action may be wrong, it was done under a strict adherence to the Moral Laws of Honor and Preservation of Family.

Quite interesting.

[Chaossaber314]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I would say that murder is innately wrong. However, some cultures have still managed to overcome that innate wrongness, so that they perceive some forms of murder as right.

Yes but even these societies do not say that murder is right, they justify it by altering their definition so that they're not murdering because of a technicality. Justification is a coping mechanism similar to denial.

For instance, it's not murder because a slave isn't a person and you can't murder property.

It's like even the most hardcore racists will deny that they are.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Captain Chaos No, Patrick, I did not really retract what I said. I just wanted to drop the topic to avoid an ugly confrontation.

Fair enough, then you wont press this further I guess...

Quote by: CC I did not make this up, and neither did the NAMBLA guy, who, despite his rather disturbing proclivities was also a PhD and researcher into this topic. He is certainly a biased source, but I later checked out and confirmed some of what he said after we interviewed him.

Aw damn, I felt for sure this was dropped, but you pressed it further. :confused: Well now that you want to press this further I guess you'll provide us with some actual evidence, right?

Quote by: Chaos If you really want to know about this, look up: Milton Diamond, "Selected Cross-Generational Sexual Behavior in Traditional Hawai'i: A Sexological Ethnography." I imagine you would have to dig article out of a library, or buy it from the publisher.

Hmm, okay you "almost" cited a source. At least you told me where to find something that you claim to be true but at present is unattainable.

I guess we can stop there, the claim doesn't need further clarification, justfication, or any other sort of "fication" right?

Quote by: Captain C Since the only point of this was to demonstrate that some cultures have accepted so-called intergenerational sex, I really see no reason to press the issue.

Good now we can finally drop it altogether and you have shown us there is no further need to talk about incest and those nations dealing with it.

Quote by: CC Ancient Greece is a good enough example.

Oh damn, you tricked me again. Just when I felt sure you had said we were done with the incest bit you make another unwarrented one-liner. You fooled me. :rolleyes:

Honestly as far as any incest discussion goes I think if such claims are to be made towards a particular culture, race, nation, religious sect, ect. that we should back it up.

Just a thought

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Yes but even these societies do not say that murder is right, they justify it by altering their definition so that they're not murdering because of a technicality. Justification is a coping mechanism similar to denial. For instance, it's not murder because a slave isn't a person and you can't murder property. It's like even the most hardcore racists will deny that they are.

Very well put. They may indeed agree that murder is innately wrong, however when they put some one to death they do not call it murder, or at least they make some excuse to say what "in this one or few cases" murder was not innately wrong (a fruitless excuse, but an excuse nonetheless)

[Chaossaber314]

Well the difference is that they don't call it murder at all and will take offense if you say that it is.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Idmaniac Hmm, okay you "almost" cited a source. At least you told me where to find something that you claim to be true but at present is unattainable. I guess we can stop there, the claim doesn't need further clarification, justfication, or any other sort of "fication" right?

Right. I wanted to make it clear that I was not making it up out of nowhere. If anyone really cares about sexual practices of traditional Hawaiians, they can look up Dr. Diamond's report on their own.

Oh damn, you tricked me again. Just when I felt sure you had said we were done with the incest bit you make another unwarrented one-liner. You fooled me. Honestly as far as any incest discussion goes I think if such claims are to be made towards a particular culture, race, nation, religious sect, ect. that we should back it up. Just a thought

Incest and intergenerational sex are not the same thing.

This is not an unwarranted oneliner, and you know it.

If you are really interested in the topic, here ya go:

Pederasty in ancient Greece - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Considering that this is in reference to an ancient culture that no longer exists, we can avoid offending anyone who is currently alive.

The point is, even things that we would, in modern terms, regard as child molestation, have been accepted by some societies.


Thinking about though - I don't know of any cultures that would accept nonconsensual sexual contact with children. I mean, I do not feel that child can give informed consent, so it is all inappropriate in my eyes. But, perhaps child rape could be a universal evil?

[Jimmy the Pro]

Very well then we shall put incest to a rest.

And i am sure that wikipedia is Such a credible source, especially on ancient texts. :rolleyes:

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ldmaniac Very well then we shall put incest to a rest. And i am sure that wikipedia is Such a credible source, especially on ancient texts. :rolleyes:

Would you care to make a bet on this topic? The wikipedia article provides scholarly references on this topic. Do you rudely roll your eyes at those sources as well?

Here is one source for you:
A more scholarly work

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Would you care to make a bet on this topic?

Quite simply, no. Betting seems kind of shallow on this forum, besides....what am I to bet? Perhaps some virtual props? Please.

Quote by: Captain The wikipedia article provides scholarly references on this topic. Do you rudely roll your eyes at those sources as well?

I "rudely" role my eyes at the thought of using the Justification for such claims by using a super highway of file sharing information to prove a point where you rely on common redderick given by everyday web users with so much as an eighth grade knowlegde of the subject and the ability to simply copy-sources of information to claim the validity of their own formulations on the topic.

Quite simply I roll my eyes at the confirmation of your claim via public posting and silly copy-paste back-ups, not only to mention the often bias representation of facts. (though I think acient greece may not have bias, phedophilia and incest certainly does)

Quote by: CC Here is one source for you: A more scholarly work

So wait....before I reply on this source, didnt you say that you wanted to DROP this whole point? Haven't I said that I would like to DROP this whole point? Then why do you continue to give me sources trying to prove it? Honestly this is like 2 persons folding in the beginning of a game of five card draw and one person is still requesting to draw cards.

[Captain Chaos]

Because, Idmaniac, it feels to me that you keep trying to make it out as if I am making unfounded claims.

I am not. Unfortunately, this is topic about which I have quite a bit of knowledge. I do not actually enjoy discussing child molestation, but if you roll your eyes at me, it implies that you think I am being stupid. If you do that, I will back up my claims.

Also, I said I wanted to drop the bit about Hawaii, because I just don't see a need to anger Patrick on this topic. He is very loving and protective of his home state, and I can appreciate his feelings. As long as it is clear I was not making up facts, I am prepared to let that go.


Regarding wikipedia - I disagree with you about their usefulness as a source. Most of their articles provide good references. I would not quote wikipedia (or any encyclopedia) as a source for a scholarly or journalistic work. I would, however, be quite willing to use them as a starting point. The wikipedia article I supplied as a link contained references to scholarly work. Thus, that article was not one worthy of eye rolling.

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Captain Chaos Because, Idmaniac, it feels to me that you keep trying to make it out as if I am making unfounded claims. I am not. Unfortunately, this is topic about which I have quite a bit of knowledge. I do not actually enjoy discussing child molestation, but if you roll your eyes at me, it implies that you think I am being stupid. If you do that, I will back up my claims.

Very well then. I have taken a look at the scholarly work you have quoted and more or less I accept the validity of it. Now you have given support to your claims. Perhaps now we can drop the topic of childmoslestation as it happens to get quite nasty when people delve deep into the issue.

Quote by: Captain Also, I said I wanted to drop the bit about Hawaii, because I just don't see a need to anger Patrick on this topic. He is very loving and protective of his home state, and I can appreciate his feelings. As long as it is clear I was not making up facts, I am prepared to let that go.

Okay, it is dropped then.

Quote by: Chaos Regarding wikipedia - I disagree with you about their usefulness as a source. Most of their articles provide good references. I would not quote wikipedia (or any encyclopedia) as a source for a scholarly or journalistic work. I would, however, be quite willing to use them as a starting point. The wikipedia article I supplied as a link contained references to scholarly work. Thus, that article was not one worthy of eye rolling.

So my question is this, did you want me to take the information from wikipedia or rather the articles that it linked to?

I roll my eyes on the idea of taking the full weight of the articles posted ON wikipedia for the reasons I have mentioned earlier. The redderick and room for error just does not satisfy me to use it as a means to prove a point.

Now if you want me to take the informations for the wikipedia LINKS, then I do not role my eyes at the credibility of such sources as those (usually) have more professional explanation and more indepth reasearch to back up the claims. All I ask is if you want me to look at the LINKS then please say so because I do not role my eyes at those.

And please do not be so offended at a simple internet facial expression. I seriously doubt the effects of this smiley are enough to start a flame war on Volconvo unless we allow them to.

[Captain Chaos]

So my question is this, did you want me to take the information from wikipedia or rather the articles that it linked to?

Wikipedia is a great way to get started on researching a topic. I believe this, because the articles are usually edited by people who have an actual interest in the topic, rather than an editor assigned to work on the topic. It also has articles on topics that no other encyclopedia could bother to address.

I believe it should be regarded as an excellent starting point for looking into a topic.

I also believe that traditional encyclopedia articles should not be regarded as authoritative.

They are reference works and starting points.

And please do not be so offended at a simple internet facial expression. I seriously doubt the effects of this smiley are enough to start a flame war on Volconvo unless we allow them to.

I apologize. I overreacted. I am highly stressed at the moment. My wife is very close to giving birth, the baby is still in a transverse position, and we still have no idea if her employer is going to give her paid maternity leave of any sort.

Also, I should not have assumed that pederasty in ancient Greece is common knowledge. It is common knowledge among those who work in child molester treatment and related efforts. I spent so much time working on a documentary on this topic that I have acquired a teeny bit of this sort of insider knowledge. I sort of just subconsciously assumed it was common knowledge, and I should not have done so.

:)

[Jimmy the Pro]

Quote by: Captain Chaos I also believe that traditional encyclopedia articles should not be regarded as authoritative. They are reference works and starting points. I apologize. I overreacted. I am highly stressed at the moment. My wife is very close to giving birth, the baby is still in a transverse position, and we still have no idea if her employer is going to give her paid maternity leave of any sort. Also, I should not have assumed that pederasty in ancient Greece is common knowledge. It is common knowledge among those who work in child molester treatment and related efforts. I spent so much time working on a documentary on this topic that I have acquired a teeny bit of this sort of insider knowledge. I sort of just subconsciously assumed it was common knowledge, and I should not have done so. :)

*shakes hand* I hope all goes well with your wife's childbearing. Please don't name the baby ldmaniac (well, if you really want to you can)

[Paleface2500]

I believe the population as a whole, decides what is right and wrong. I don’t believe humans are born with any sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong has to be learned.

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: Paleface2500 I believe the population as a whole, decides what is right and wrong. I don’t believe humans are born with any sense of right and wrong. Right and wrong has to be learned.

Have you ever had kids?

Watching a baby grow up, they have instincts. Those instincts are at the root of rightness and wrongness.

Very few people, in any culture, want to have their stuff stolen. Very few desire to be raped - why do you think that is?

[Captain Chaos]

Quote by: ldmaniac *shakes hand* I hope all goes well with your wife's childbearing. Please don't name the baby ldmaniac (well, if you really want to you can)

His name is Brayden Hawthorn Lynch