Affirmative Action is Wrong

[Cephus]

Quote by: Jakob The way it was reported in the local paper, the funding for all ESL (English as a Second Language) programs were pulled, and all street signs, posters, and other forms of media were in English, and English only.

Government stuff, certainly. They can't stop you, as a private citizen or business owner, from printing your own materials in any language you want. Print them in Pig Latin for all anyone cares.

[Osborn F Enready]

Affirmative Action is racism.

[tinybear]

Racism is all the more worse when endorsed and sponsored by the government.

[Osborn F Enready]

Tinybear said: Racism is all the more worse when endorsed and sponsored by the government.

I say:
Wow, we agree on something.

[tinybear]

Quote by: Osborn F Enready I say: Wow, we agree on something.

Osborn, please. You're getting me worried.

[tinybear]

Affirmative Action from a different perspective:

YouTube - Chris Rock-first day of school

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Jakob The problem is they pulled all the fundings for the programs that teach english. Immigrants are left with no way at all of communicating.

Was it the ESL programs from which they pulled funding or the "bilingual education" programs?

[Jakob]

I misquoted in my earlier post. It was all programs that taught English as a second language. I turned that into ESL, when really that's a different program.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Jakob I misquoted in my earlier post. It was all programs that taught English as a second language. I turned that into ESL, when really that's a different program.

ESL is teaching English as a second language. That, however, is different from programs where the schools are teaching students in two different languages (e.g. English and Spanish but excluding the foreign language courses).

[Seven]

Even though this thread isn't the newest... since it doesn't seem like there's any takers for the pro side, I'll give it a go.

I'd like to clarify a few points of affirmative action that seems to be misaddressed.

1. Affirmative action isn't promoting racism, it's fighting against it. How? The program is trying to create an opportunity for minorities. AA is supposed to set up programs to help people gain the skills needed for a field of work. Which brings me to another point...

2. Affirmative action isn't trying to incorporate unqualified people. It seems that a handful of people believe that AA is just a handout of jobs. It's not. AA tries to level the playing field and offer educational and training opportunities to prepare people for the jobs.

3. Affirmative action doesn't try to fill out a quota. It's not "Oh, we have to fill so and so because we need this number of blacks/Latinos/women/etc." Over time, the program would like job statistics to reflect the population, but they don't employ unqualified people.

4. Affirmative action doesn't take jobs away from the white people. That's not the point of AA. Yes, it does try to employ minorities, but that's because minorities have been glanced over in regards of jobs; there is a definite "glass ceiling". Racism isn't gone; it's still very much prominent. Also, if you didn't know, AA doesn't apply to all job openings. In fact, it only applies to about 30% of jobs. So, minorities won't be stealing all your jobs.

5. Affirmative action isn't trying to create tensions between whites and minorities. I understand that some believe that AA would just make white people hate minorities and that it's reverse racism. I think if white people were to actually understand what AA was all about, they would understand that it's important in a fight to equal out the racial playing field and fight racism.

"Racism is all the more worse when endorsed and sponsored by the government."

I found this comment somewhat ironic. Government is sponsoring racism right now. Removing AA is just another way to keep minorities impoverished and keep power in a small group of elites.

[Chaossaber314]

My personal leaning toward Affirmative Action is to abolish it and take all the money put forward in universities, all the money in scholarships based upon race, all the many thrown into legal defense funds to help combat attempts to limit or abolish it, and have them put toward reforming inner city schools.

Help the man to have the ability to open the door like everyone else. Don't hold it open for him.

[kubedawg]

Quote by: Seven 1. Affirmative action isn't promoting racism, it's fighting against it. How? The program is trying to create an opportunity for minorities. AA is supposed to set up programs to help people gain the skills needed for a field of work. Which brings me to another point...

It is promoting racism, because what if I'm NOT a minority, say, caucasion, you are thereby automatically assuming I am self sufficient regardless of what I do with my life, but minorities are not? Forgive me for laughing.

Quote by: Seven 2. Affirmative action isn't trying to incorporate unqualified people. It seems that a handful of people believe that AA is just a handout of jobs. It's not. AA tries to level the playing field and offer educational and training opportunities to prepare people for the jobs.

For all people, or just minorities? If just for minorities, it's promoting racism.

Quote by: Seven 3. Affirmative action doesn't try to fill out a quota. It's not "Oh, we have to fill so and so because we need this number of blacks/Latinos/women/etc." Over time, the program would like job statistics to reflect the population, but they don't employ unqualified people.

Meaning they don't qualify any minority who does not meet the qualifications, but white people can?

Quote by: Seven 4. Affirmative action doesn't take jobs away from the white people. That's not the point of AA. Yes, it does try to employ minorities, but that's because minorities have been glanced over in regards of jobs; there is a definite "glass ceiling". Racism isn't gone; it's still very much prominent. Also, if you didn't know, AA doesn't apply to all job openings. In fact, it only applies to about 30% of jobs. So, minorities won't be stealing all your jobs.

A glass ceiling can be broken by one's will to achieve success with the proper tools to break that glass... Therefore, this goes for everyone, not just minorities. About your 30% statement, in your previous statements, you'd be correct, seeing as white people would get the jobs regardless of their qualifications... See? Still promoting racism.

Quote by: Seven 5. Affirmative action isn't trying to create tensions between whites and minorities. I understand that some believe that AA would just make white people hate minorities and that it's reverse racism. I think if white people were to actually understand what AA was all about, they would understand that it's important in a fight to equal out the racial playing field and fight racism.

From what you've said already, I think it's pretty clear what AA is all about.....

Quote by: Seven "Racism is all the more worse when endorsed and sponsored by the government." I found this comment somewhat ironic. Government is sponsoring racism right now. Removing AA is just another way to keep minorities impoverished and keep power in a small group of elites.

Remove AA, continue equal opportunity. Minorities shouldn't be given more of a chance to succeed than anyone else on this planet. My ancestors may have been from europe and were caucasion, and I have passed down those traits, such as caucasion skin, but how does that make me any different than a black person, or a woman or a latino? It doesn't.

If there are bigots in charge of a company, why work there anyway? And if it's a big deal, most companies have an open door policy, and fight it until you reach the CEO of the company if you have to.

You think only white people are racist? There are just as many black people and latinos who are racist as white people. We are all equal on this planet, and should be treated as such. If a white person wants to succeed, earn it. If a black person wants to succeed, earn it. Don't buy into some half baked program that hides it's true nature.

Sorry for tearin your post apart, but it needed to be done.

[zippster18]

I have to agree with Chaossaber here...

I swear, I haven't gotten a single Scholarship and I know darn well that if i were a different colour, heck even if I changed my religious affiliation, or moved to somewhere different, I could get them.

But the thing with Schools and Scholarships, is that they still think you rely on your family to help support you through school.

It'd be nice if they could just go we have $______ to give out...we have _________ students... divide it up equally. Equality is what this country is supposed to be based on. Never putting down the little guy.

[Osborn F Enready]

Affirmative Action should more appropriately be called "reverse racism", or "racial retributionism".

[brien]

Here are a few comments by Tom Sowell, PHD, a well respected balck economist.

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Blacks by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine

The Grand Fraud: Affirmative Action for Blacks
by Thomas Sowell (April 1, 2003)

No issue has been more saturated with dishonesty than the issue of racial quotas and preferences, which is now being examined by the Supreme Court of the United States. Many defenders of affirmative action are not even honest enough to admit that they are talking about quotas and preferences, even though everyone knows that that is what affirmative action amounts to in practice. Despite all the gushing about the mystical benefits of "diversity" in higher education, a recent study by respected academic scholars found that "college diversity programs fail to raise standards" and that "a majority of faculty members and administrators recognize this when speaking anonymously." This study by Stanley Rothman, Seymour Martin Lipset, and Neil Nevitte found that "of those who think that preferences have some impact on academic standards those believing it negative exceed those believing it positive by 15 to 1."

"Affirmative Action" Quotas on Trial by Thomas Sowell -- Capitalism Magazine

What about the magic benefits of "diversity" -- a word repeated endlessly, without a speck of evidence of those benefits? If diversity is so essential, how does a nation like Japan, with a homogeneous population, manage to get its students educated (better than ours), its work done, and its people living in more harmony than we have? The assumption that there is something strange about not having different groups "represented" in various occupations and institutions in proportion to their share of the population will not stand up to the slightest scrutiny. Massive scholarly studies of countries around the world have failed to turn up a single country in which the different racial or ethnic groups are proportionally represented in occupations or institutions -- except where governments have imposed quotas.

Thomas Sowell

All of this is politics. If you were serious about helping blacks and other minorities, you would try to get them some decent education long before they reached the college level. But that would require upsetting the status quo with things like vouchers. More to the point, it would upset the teachers' union that supplies millions of dollars in campaign contributions to the Democrats. Politicians find it more expedient to sacrifice the education of another generation of minority students and offer the symbolism of getting them into the kinds of colleges where their poor preparation almost ensures that most are going to fail. Minority students need a realistic prospect of succeeding at places like the University of California at Irvine until such time as they get the kind of education that would enable them to succeed at Berkeley and UCLA. If that kind of education means stepping on the toes of the teachers' union, so be it

It seems some who conduct research in AA programs come to realize they are a dismal failure. Dr Sowell eloquently endeavors to point this out to the pointy headed do gooders who have no regard for the consequences of their misguided actions that superficially seem to be benevolent but do more harm than good for the very people they claim to help.

[Fonceai]

@Osborn

It's not so much that it's racism, as much as it is over-reaction to racism.

I understand what you mean, though, that preferring one race over another is as racist as hating one race more than another.

Where Affirmative Action should have stopped is at the Ethnicity section on forms. Even though someone could guess your ethnicity from your name, there's not much you can do to help that.

[Scribbler1]

Quote by: Chaossaber314 Help the man to have the ability to open the door like everyone else. Don't hold it open for him.

Sounds like the title to a James Brown song. In fact, it almost is.

[Kamehameha34]

I forget if I've posted, but I agree.

I know that when I check "white" on future applications, I will be less likely to get what I'm applying for.

How is that different from a black man being less likely to get a job because of his color?