anti-sexism, and womens' priveleges.

[Lunar]

I've noticed how Women push for equality and yet seem to have social advantages that men don't have.
In court women tend to be considered more 'innocent' than men, and tend to get custosty of the children before the husband does in divorce, they can make claims of rape or abuse and everyone instantly beleives them.
The wife dies, the husband is the first suspect and usually always examined and questioned tirelessly, when a husband dies, the wife isn't as bitterly eexamined and investigated as a suspect unless neccisary.
in culture women have advantages of certain aspects of being 'polite'
women before men.
save the women and children first
ladies first
never hit a woman.

in the workplace women have it easy, busineeses have to hire so many women, and have to pay them so much.

The media make women seem perfect, criticising men and making them seem abusive, cruel, and cheaters, and women not.
televisions channels like 'lifetime' just about in every movie have some guy beating his wife and cheating on the poor innocent woman.

talking about feminists themselves, I think this joke discribes the hypocrisy well enough

Quote by: ass clown (diffrent site) Q. How many feminists does it take to screw in a light bulb: A. 11 One to screw it in One to blame men for inventing such a faulty means of illumination One to exclaim that the light-bulb has violated the socket One to secretly wish that she was the socket. One to blame men for not changing the bulb One to blame men for trying to change the bulb instead of letting a woman do it One to blame men for creating a society that discourages women from changing light bulbs One to blame men for creating a society where women change too many light bulbs One to complain that female light bulb changers are underpaid compared to male light bulb changers One to alert the media that women are now “out-lightbulbing” men One to just sit there taking pictures for her blog for photo-evidence that men are unnecessary.

Quote by: kiron feminism is so frickin hypocritical and Females need to get the same justice as men and not get special treatment because they have breasts.

YouTube - Breaking The Lies - The Gentler Sex Offender

this video shows that women to are responsible for much abuse, rape, molestation, and so forth. and that societies view of men being the main cause is horribly mistaken.

further more, one of the comments on the video went like this, and helps you grasp it more.

Quote by: themanonthestreet The video is to show that the media, and society as a whole sees a male having sex with a 15 year old as rape or pedophillia. But when a woman has sex with a 15 year old, it is called cute things like "an affair". Furthermore, women tend to not even get "into trouble" for their "indiscretions". A pedophile is a pedophile, regardless of the gender and they should be treated equally in the eyes of the law.

I think If people want sexism completly gone, they should stop focusing on the big problems and focus on the everyday, where women seem to have all the social advantages over men and where society itself glorifies women out of proportion.
So, should the view of sexism be changed to how unbalanced our society is when it comes to women rights, or should we just keep focusing on the big things that stand out more, like how its 'sexist taht muslim women where head cloths'?

[Jack]

We've had several threads already posted about the "evils" of feminism. None have gone very far.

But when a woman has sex with a 15 year old, it is called cute things like "an affair". Furthermore, women tend to not even get "into trouble" for their "indiscretions".

Perhaps you've overlooked the teachers (female) who have gone to jail for having sexual relations with their students.

[Lunar]

Im not saying that women don't get in trouble for wrong acts, however they still need to be treated just the same as men when it comes to the judicial system.

It's not really whether or not women are treated better in society than men, becuase its apparent they are, it's whether or not this should be thought as more important than attacking the more noticable forms of sexism.

[Jack]

If we think of it as "more important", how does that relate to "they still need to be treated just the same as men"?

[Jakob]

I'll give credence to the fact that many of the feminists I've encountered in my life have been slightly hypocritical. For example, on reading a story about a woman who left her husband with one child, had an affair, tried to come back, was refused, and then killed herself, a friend of mine exclaimed, "Yeah! You go babe!."

I then went and retyped an almost identical story, replacing she with he. Her reaction was of course, "Men are pigs."

But these people are the minority. The only reason we hear so much about extreme feminism is it's those feminists that do the newsworthy. The not-so-extreme feminist who simply rejects anything less than what she actually deserves is one of the wisest types of people I've ever come across.

[Karin]

I'm not buying your reasons for society being unbalanced toard favoring women. Each of your examples can easily be refuted or countered with an example of preferential treatment toward males.

"More innocent in court?" How about the fact that only recently is it even possible for a woman to bring a rape charge without having it assumed that she was promiscious or in some way asking for it.

"Never hit a woman" I'm sure if there was not a huge difference in the amount of men abusing women over women beating men, it would not be necessary to drill that into the heads of young males.

I don't think you would find much evidence supporting your claims that women are less likely to be questioned for murder of a spouse based solely on their gender. Perhaps there are other factors, such as previous records of domestic abuse, that cause them to look more closely at certain males.

Males and females will never be the same, but as you quote, "need to get the same justice as men and not get special treatment because they have breasts."

[pahl]

I think theres sexism from both sides, but you are right in that there is an awful lot of hypocrisy in how society treats men and women. More often then not you get a whole other response from people when you exchange the "he" for a "she" or reverse in stories.

When anyone ask me i say im not a feminist, but a masculinist.

[Zhavric]

There are two issues goin on in this thread:

• The doctrine of so-called "extreme feminism".
• How woman and men are actually treated in society.

Both subjects are hard to quantify or discuss without resorting to anecdotal evidence. There isn't a feminist handbook that every feminist on the planet zealously adheres to. Nor are there hard and fast accurate statistics on the legal happenings of men & women accused of crimes or in divorces. Every crime & divorce is different.

Thus, this is a rough topic to debate. These discussions usually come down to "well, my friend who's a feminist said _______________ " and "Look at the statistics I got from this one really biased website."

All that being said...

If you're looking for "facts" about the "evils of feminism", I recommend: International Men's Network .

Also, I'm going to jump on my own bandwagon and say that I've met feminists who are, well... horrible people. What I've never been able to wrap my head around is this question: Are they horrible people because they're feminists or are they horrible people who just happen to be feminists? There's really no way to tell, but I lean towards the second option.

[Fonceai]

I'd say horrible people who are feminists. Certain types of extremist personalities need to rally behind some kind of cause and don't realize how much of a f*ckstick they are being.

With regards to physiology I am the first one to say that men and women should never be considered equal. Watching a female M-60 gunner ask a guy to carry her ammo box because "the gun is really heavy" used to piss me off. But you can't tell the 5'2", 110 lb. girl that she can't be a 60 gunner.

In any other aspect, I think women should STFU and be equal. No special considerations for gender in any regard.

As far as the traditions of "woman and children first" and such, that's just courtesy or related, again, to physiology. But if it boils down to respect, women should either follow the same rules or not play at all.

[Zhavric]

My anecdotal evidence (granted, this is the weakest form of evidence) is in the form of a woman we will call "Jennifer".

At first glance, Jennifer may be the uber-woman. She's gorgeous. If you look up "blonde bomb-shell" in the dictionary, you'll see her picture. She's successful. She's in a degree-requiring industry. She has a desk job and runs her own company. At the age of 23, she won the equivalent of an oscar for her industry.

She also has a horrible streak.

I was speakinger to her (as she's a dear friend to someone I've known for a decade) about her work. She took great delight in explaining how she stole customers & ultimately bankrupted a woman who dared to underestimate Jennifer because Jennifer (at first glance) sounds completely brainless... just another pretty face with a chearleader voice. I need to stress how delighted Jennifer was about how she'd ruined this woman over what amounted to nothing more than (at worst) a slight insult. She felt empowered over this.

It was when I finally realized that feminism has potential for massive quantities of bullsh** and that some feminists really are just mean-spirited; they're looking to be the victim and the victimizer at the same time.

[Fonceai]

But that's just it.

She's a malicious person.

Does that make of a feminist, or a sadist?

[Zhavric]

It makes her a "feminist". I've given a lot of thought to the word, and I've decided to just abandon it.

Instead, I'm for equal rights. If you want to call that "women's rights", I'm okay with that, too. Feminism is just too tainted to be of any use to anyone.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Fonceai I'd say horrible people who are feminists. Certain types of extremist personalities need to rally behind some kind of cause and don't realize how much of a f*ckstick they are being.

And some of them are simply men-hating lesbians.

With regards to physiology I am the first one to say that men and women should never be considered equal. Watching a female M-60 gunner ask a guy to carry her ammo box because "the gun is really heavy" used to piss me off. But you can't tell the 5'2", 110 lb. girl that she can't be a 60 gunner.

Not to mention what would likely happen if a 5'2", 110 pound male M-60 gunner were to ask another guy to carry his ammo box for the same reason.

In any other aspect, I think women should STFU and be equal. No special considerations for gender in any regard.

Ah, there's the rub. Do we mean equal opportunity or (as certain civil rights activists today would insist) equal outcomes? But, yes, I agree that if women want to insist on being equal and on being allowed to behave like men, they should bear the same consequences.

As far as the traditions of "woman and children first" and such, that's just courtesy or related, again, to physiology. But if it boils down to respect, women should either follow the same rules or not play at all.

But if these feminists insist that they're the same as men, then physiology shouldn't play into it at all - unless you want to put the 5'2", 110 pound man in the same category as the 5'2", 110 pound woman.

[Zinkovich]

We have an unfortunate conundrum here.

In the current status of things, there are strange and subtle differences between the manner in which men and women are treated. If we were to be silent, these conditions would most likely continue to exist and be propogated as a social meme.

If those of us who are for equal rights between men and women speak either on an international or personal level as a group, however, we are almost inevitably lumped in with either of the extremist sides based on our gender thanks to the anecdotal experiences everyone has that is similar to Zhavric's own experiences.

So, how do those of us who are for equal rights speak without being able to be called extreme? How do we posture, without coming across as belligerent? And if our posturing as rightists makes us the assholes we are, then how do we propogate our views while being silent?

The way I see it, one of the most common problems with rights is the non-differentiation between ideals and the people who follow them. Just because feminists are bitches does not mean that feminism as an ideal is wrong, just as the fact that some machoistic men are ruddy, horny bastards in no way discredits men in general.

[Fonceai]

So basically, if I'm all for completely and perfectly equal rights, I'm extremely moderate on the issue?

<grins>

The problem with most -isms these days is that they started with the best of intentions.

Feminism was intended to bring women to equal opportunity and legal status as men.

Some women are using that momentum to go farther. Thus, feminism and its negative connotations.

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Zinkovich We have an unfortunate conundrum here. In the current status of things, there are strange and subtle differences between the manner in which men and women are treated. If we were to be silent, these conditions would most likely continue to exist and be propogated as a social meme. If those of us who are for equal rights between men and women speak either on an international or personal level as a group, however, we are almost inevitably lumped in with either of the extremist sides based on our gender thanks to the anecdotal experiences everyone has that is similar to Zhavric's own experiences. So, how do those of us who are for equal rights speak without being able to be called extreme? How do we posture, without coming across as belligerent? And if our posturing as rightists makes us the assholes we are, then how do we propogate our views while being silent? The way I see it, one of the most common problems with rights is the non-differentiation between ideals and the people who follow them. Just because feminists are bitches does not mean that feminism as an ideal is wrong, just as the fact that some machoistic men are ruddy, horny bastards in no way discredits men in general.

Ah, but feminism has gone beyond merely fighting to have the same rights that men have. It has gone on to an unnatural, perverted attempt to obliterate every distinction between male and female.

Here's an article that makes for interesting reading (it does not say what I just said above): Feminism

[Zinkovich]

So basically, if I'm all for completely and perfectly equal rights, I'm extremely moderate on the issue? <grins>

No, you're exactly right :) . Also, you're obviously not the majority in terms of application of attitude if such is the case, and thus need to further propogate it for the betterment of human society.

If you thought I was saying otherwise, read my post again.

The problem with most -isms these days is that they started with the best of intentions. Feminism was intended to bring women to equal opportunity and legal status as men.

Unfortunately, this also now extends to some "feminist" arguments which are legitimate and do not deserve the societal connotation they are given.

That is what my point was in my previous post. Every time I make a "feminist" argument on the internet people immediately assume I am a butch lesbian. I'm tired of it. My arugment is not entirely "feminist" in the same way the number one is not entirely geometric- the context in which I make my reasoning should define such a label and not the nature of the reasoning itself.

Some women are using that momentum to go farther. Thus, feminism and its negative connotations.

So the "moderate" feminists relabel themselves. Now what? They'll most likely be relabeled as feminists by society anyways, because their arugments were similar.

Do you see what I am trying to get at with the problems of implicating an idea based on its more extreme followers?

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Chancellor Ah, but feminism has gone beyond merely fighting to have the same rights that men have. It has gone on to an unnatural, perverted attempt to obliterate every distinction between male and female. Here's an article that makes for interesting reading (it does not say what I just said above): Feminism

From what I am speed-reading, that article is well elucidated and takes into account the true philosophical image of feminism. Unfortunately, the negative connotations of feminism has extended to arugments that are not exclusively "feminist" in their reasoning or focus, thus culturally devaluing many valid and well-reasoned points that otherwise are just common sense.

[Fonceai]

I've always believed that. It applies to everything from political party to perception of gay rights to gender equality.

It's all about the problem with labels.

[Zinkovich]

Quote by: Fonceai I've always believed that. It applies to everything from political party to perception of gay rights to gender equality. It's all about the problem with labels.

So how does one escape these labels in order to be heard for what their arguments really are? How does one philosphically escape the connotations associated with them due to outer extremists? I think these question would be valuable ones for us "rightists" to attempt to answer, because they are key to truly being heard by others.

Keep in mind denouncement of the extremists is also not necessarily the optimal solution when considering that denouncement usually implies an earlier association in the minds of the average American, thanks to the charming effects of the little association games mainstream media likes to play has on the philosophical intuition of its watchers.