Is Harlem A Prison?

[grandpa]

Is Harlem A Prison?

COPS PLAY HIGH SPY By JOHN MAZOR, TOM LIDDY and ANDY GELLER - New York Post Online Edition: Seven

the NYPD has begun installing Sky Watch, an eye in the sky mounted on a tower... The Sky Watch, about two stories tall, consists of a booth for a cop that stands atop a tower that collapses when the officer is ready to leave.

This brings me to the title question: Is Harlem a prison or something? What gives?

Perhaps this is a factor:

Others cast a dim eye at the watchtower, saying it was installed only to protect two luxury condo complexes going up on the corner.

Grandpa h.

[RickSp]

Sure. A prison with a juice bar on the corner next to the multimillion-dollar apartments. Yah, sounds like a prison to me, without the walls, wire, or cells, of course, where you can come and go as you please. Except for all that.

I might prefer a cop on the beat to a cop in a watch tower, but if it makes the streets safer, why not?

[Mia]

I like that idea. A cop can see a lot more from a watch tower than several on the ground.

Just to use as an example, we have 4 security guards watching our condo complex - one in a watchtower and one on the ground would be more effective than the 4.

[grandpa]

So no one else thinks this is weird?

Grandpa h.

[Jack]

Gated communities have set the precedent. As in other areas, we seem to tolerate tactics more common to a police state if it assures us of security in our homes. Slippery slope? Perhaps.

[Mia]

You think it's police state-ish? I hadn't thought of it that way. Of course, I don't have a watchtower in my neighborhood so I wouldn't know how it feels.

Our security is here to keep us from breaking rules, but mostly to watch out for people on the property that shouldn't be, protecting our cars and homes.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: grandpa So no one else thinks this is weird? Grandpa h.

Oh, I definately think this is wierd, even twisted. But knowing the role HUD plays in all of this, Ive sort of come to expect this as the end result. It'll all become just like one big government housing project, complete with monitors if they get their way.


Welcome the Police State.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Milton Bradley It'll all become just like one big government housing project, complete with monitors if they get their way.

You know, if you don't want to live in a government housing project with monitors, you could always just... oh, I don't know... pay your own way?

When the public pays your bills, you lose your right to bitch.

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Cephus You know, if you don't want to live in a government housing project with monitors, you could always just... oh, I don't know... pay your own way? When the public pays your bills, you lose your right to bitch.

I said it would be "like a government housing project", I don't lve in one.


Sorry, no matter how you attempt to spin this one, I will never be an advocate for the Police State.

[RickSp]

Not much more than a higher tech version of a cop walking the beat. I suspect that the corner was identified by CompStat as a "hotspot".

The NYPD said the tower was placed in Harlem to combat a surge in murders. "We've had a spike in murders there," said Browne. "The general use would be to address areas where we have spikes in crime.

I don't think cutting down on violent crime is such a terrible thing.

[Athena]

Quote by: Cephus You know, if you don't want to live in a government housing project with monitors, you could always just... oh, I don't know... pay your own way? When the public pays your bills, you lose your right to bitch.

Maybe when the economy collapses you will learn something about the problems involved in paying one's own way. My step sister studied art in college and wound up with a high paying construction job related to art, because of who she knew. My half sisters married very wealthy men, because our father's home is in an exclusive nieghborhood. I can understand not liking the decisions poor people, in lousey neighborhoods make, but hey, they are not working with the same set of choices, nor the security and of people who do have security.

People evacuated to Texas because of Katrina learned outside of where they live that other people have much better schools. They are now fighting to give their children the same advantage. This will result in social change.

I lived close to the school where a kid killed his parents and then killed several students, and that school is so bad the major of the city will not send his own children to the school. The cops in that city seem to be killing someone about once a month. There are some environments that lead to bad things happening and a resentful, respressive feeling that is anti success and more prone to violence. It reproduces like mold on bread.

Police towers have to do with social and economic conditions, and the people who think this is the way to handle these problems. It is like a patch of skin that is breaking down because of cancer. It will make things worse, because it is a sign that the social bonds that keep people civil, have broken down, and like cancer this condition only gets worse unless the cause of the problem is resolved.

Can we return to talking about public education and culture? I don't think people are understanding the importance of education and culture?

[copabeat]

Granpa:
I quess you haven't been to Harlem in a long time, it is beautiful and thriving, maybe not all but most. It is the people of Harlem that asked for this security, they love thier kids too and want the best for them. Also in case no one told you yet, Harlem is now considered one of the swankiest neighboorhoods to live in, even for the "White Devils".

[grandpa]

Quote by: copabeat I quess you haven't been to Harlem in a long time, it is beautiful and thriving, maybe not all but most. It is the people of Harlem that asked for this security, they love thier kids too and want the best for them.

But some people in Harlem do not like this development, as highlighted in the article. I think the reasons are obvious, including that having a watchtower makes it look like a prison.

Grandpa h.

[ghost_stalker]

In my experience people are usually treated how they act. People think that they can break the law whenever they want, and know that most of the time they will not get caught, there aren't enough police for that. So the police responded by extending the effectiveness of the officers which operate the towers, in an attempt to stop crimes. If they want the towers taken down then they should make it so that the police have no reason to put towers up.

[Athena]

Quote by: copabeat Granpa: I quess you haven't been to Harlem in a long time, it is beautiful and thriving, maybe not all but most. It is the people of Harlem that asked for this security, they love thier kids too and want the best for them. Also in case no one told you yet, Harlem is now considered one of the swankiest neighboorhoods to live in, even for the "White Devils".

Copabeat, you made me curious so I googled the transformation of Harlem and it appears the difference of opinion about the tower could be a class difference.

Harlem between Heaven and Hell Harlem brings to mind a kaleidoscope of images—the jazz clubs and cultural ferment of the 1920s and 1930s, the urban decay of the 1960s and 1970s, and the revitalization of the past twenty years, with artists, writers, professionals, and even an ex-president moving to a community often seen as the capital of black America. Integral to the ongoing transformation of Harlem has been the return of the African-American middle class to what had become an overwhelmingly poor area. In this lively book, Monique M. Taylor explores the stresses created by this influx, the surprising ways class differences manifest themselves and are managed, and what we can learn from examining a community in which race and class are so closely intertwined.

If people in Harlem have asked for the tower, that changes my first opinion a little, but I would still say it would not be necessary if there were not social breakdown, and this will not be cured with a police tower alone. Something must be done to repair the social breakdown.

[Cephus]

Quote by: ghost_stalker In my experience people are usually treated how they act. People think that they can break the law whenever they want, and know that most of the time they will not get caught, there aren't enough police for that. So the police responded by extending the effectiveness of the officers which operate the towers, in an attempt to stop crimes. If they want the towers taken down then they should make it so that the police have no reason to put towers up.

I agree. We have a climate of lawlessness today where people figure that the laws don't apply to them and they can do anything they want and if you call them on it, they get upset that you'd dare question their assumption that they are above the law. I'm sure if Harlem wasn't a bastion of crime, the police wouldn't have had a reason to put the towers in. You wouldn't see that kind of thing in a crime-free neighborhood, would you?

[Milton Bradley]

Quote by: Cephus We have a climate of lawlessness today where people figure that the laws don't apply to them and they can do anything they want and if you call them on it, they get upset that you'd dare question their assumption that they are above the law. I'm sure if Harlem wasn't a bastion of crime, the police wouldn't have had a reason to put the towers in. You wouldn't see that kind of thing in a crime-free neighborhood, would you?

Ever seen a gated community? Some come with gates, cameras, and guards.


While your contentions may be true, the only "crimes" that ever seem have legislation enacted to curb them are the crimes commited by the Blue Collar segment of our society. White Collar crime is rampant in our "culture of corruption", and very little White Collar crime is ever even addressed in the media, let alone acted upon by lawmakers.


Ironically it is this proliferation of the White Collar crime, and the results of those crimes that have created the environment where the Blue Collar crime is often necessary just to survive for many of the more disenfranchised.


When are the workers going to realize that they have the numbers to win this war? ( I say that because the other side is obviously waging this war against them, seemingly without their knowledge. )


I now offer up my prediction for the morale of this story, and I'd like to offer it up in a succinct, quotable form, "you can't lead morons into battle". ( The monnied know this, and exploit it. )


You may quote me on that if you like.

[Cephus]

Quote by: Milton Bradley Ever seen a gated community? Some come with gates, cameras, and guards.

Yes and people *CHOOSE* to live there. Heck, most of the time, people pay a premium to live there. They're certainly not complaining about the gates, cameras and guards, are they?

Harlem is a different story. Gated communities exist to keep crime out. Harlem has criminal problems stemming from within. The police towers exist to stop as much of the existing crime as possible. If there wasn't so much crime in Harlem to begin with, the towers would never have been built.

[Athena]

Quote by: Cephus Yes and people *CHOOSE* to live there. Heck, most of the time, people pay a premium to live there. They're certainly not complaining about the gates, cameras and guards, are they? Harlem is a different story. Gated communities exist to keep crime out. Harlem has criminal problems stemming from within. The police towers exist to stop as much of the existing crime as possible. If there wasn't so much crime in Harlem to begin with, the towers would never have been built.

Are you a conservative?

I think the thread conservative brain washing in politics addresses the problem of which Milton speaks. The conservatives are waging a war on the masses. They have framed a competitive reality with winners and loosers, rather a cooperative common wealth. They have prepared us for Orwellian think, where what is said is the opposite of what will happen. The masses are not morons, but they just aren't playing the same game and don't even know it exist.

If Harlem or any black community is doing well, it is because the people rioted to such a degree they could not be ignored, and got some government economic action in their favor. Passive people, no matter how obedient and hard working, do not get political decisions in their favor. They get exploited and ignored.

[brien]

Quote by: Mia I like that idea. A cop can see a lot more from a watch tower than several on the ground. Just to use as an example, we have 4 security guards watching our condo complex - one in a watchtower and one on the ground would be more effective than the 4.

Mia; If I had to live where 4 security guards are required, I think I would consider moving.