Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 3, 2003, 11:04 pm

Sec 8, that kid was quite traumatized because it happened to her in real life. It would be lying to erase it from public consciousness. Makes me think of Bush's quote, "Bring 'em on!" when he never experienced for himself what war really was. Your example of napalm was vivid, but misguided.

Greatwyrm, personal expression is not commercial expression. I certainly hope you're smart enough to know the difference. That, and the car companies coerced the government, not the other way around.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 4, 2003, 04:26 pm

Car companies? Are you totally derailed, or do you think that railroad car companies brought down our rail system somehow?

Products are ideas in material form. Only food and wood grow on trees, and only water springs from the ground. All else was created the first time by Engineers.

If you mean the demand of current business to get corporate welfare, you may want to realize that if the government was not allowed in business, corp welfare could not exist. Therefore corp welfare is not a product of free-market. Government sleeping with businessmen would be impossible if the two had nothing to do with each other. You may want to think a concept through before announcing it and looking like a fool.

In a real free-market, a business that did not offer a relieable product for a fair price would be eaten by those that did. Since a man can grow his own food, monopoly would be impossible in the long run, because a better company would eventually kill them.

The government should be limited to interferring with food, water, and shelter. Only those items can be withheld to gain power.

Geoff332 · Oct 5, 2003, 09:28 am

Quote:

Are you totally derailed, or do you think that railroad car companies brought down our rail system somehow?

I could be wrong, but I suspect he's talking about the rather well documented cases where the car companies (led by GM) colluded to destroy the LA streetcars and other urban and intercity rail services. Alfred Sloan went about systematically destroying an industry nationwide. They got tried and convicted for their actions on more than one occassion. Their strategies including buying and scrapping existing (and economically successful) rail lines and bribing various Government officials. Their partners in this business included Firestone, Standard Oil, and the mob.

More than any other entity, including the Government, General Motors was responsible for the demise of passenger rail in the US.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 5, 2003, 10:28 am

Exactly. I have no clue where you got this whole "railroad car" thing going, Greatwyrm, but the likes of Sloan, DuPont, and Moses and such are scary enough.

As for what the government should guarantee, I'd add phone lines, power lines, and reliable transportation, too. Not that we're already having enough trouble with simple housing.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 6, 2003, 12:58 am

Simple housing? Yeah right, the government has tripled the price of buying a house all in the name of protecting the poor. I guess it does protect them from inferior houses, they cannot even afford an inferior one...

GM could not have done that to the railways had they not already been crippled.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 6, 2003, 01:49 am

Actually, the government subsidized housing loans, but only for new constructions, and only to a certain grade. Thus, most cities were redlined, and most buildings, instead of being renovated, were abandoned for the explosive suburban growth far away from the city core - and out of the reach of the working class. At the same time, with architects' love for minimalism and cost efficiency came the soviet bloc-style public housing projects which gave even the term "project" a bad name. All in the name, I believe, of encouraging the popularity of the car over rail, which I believe was spurred by heavy influence from the car companies themselves. GM was our biggest company nationwide, and essentially effected the balance between roads and rails to set us apart from the rest of the industrialized world. You'll notice that rail was wildly successful everywhere but here, and it's not for lack of trying here - we had, up until WWII, the longest track mileage worldwide.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 6, 2003, 10:27 pm

So you are trying to tell me that the railroads long practice of allowing frieght costs to climb and allowing a large labor union to grow used to the income granted by a virtual monopoly, had nothing to do with the fact that when an alternate way to move frieght they were totally unable to compete? Except by using the political system.

GM had to take on the railroad. The railroad was doing the best it could to make moving frieght by truck illegal. So, of course, the motor company used the advantages it had to cut support for those very railroads.

Seems to me that the practice of dividing up areas and running small local monopolies, such as the railroads employied at the time is being repeated today. Airlines, phone companies, utilities, are all following the same pattern. The airlines are currently asking for more and more government support, the utilities in California and simular areas are doing the same. Luckily it looks as if the internet may just kill the phone companies, but they are trying their best to make the government make free long distance calls over the internet illegal...

All I ask is that you think about it...is the businessman the cause of the corruption, or the combination of government and business?

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 03:10 am

Well,well, well Section 8, finally something I agree with you on.
I used to work in a PC Games shop in Sydney, and some of the games that I was helping to sell to kids, were just plain awful, points for running over people in car games were some of the mild examples, I ended up loosing my job when I wouldnt sell a PC game that was mostly about people being eaten alive in graphic detail by demons.
The lady(?) was being urged by her piggy looking brat to get it, even being threatened, I ended up on principle denying her the sale as I didnt want to help turn this kid into a more hate filled monster than he already was.
My Boss took over the sale, and I left two days later with my pay in discust.

Section 8 · Oct 8, 2003, 10:53 am

When my nephew was killing prostitutes after he fucked them, and then proceeding to mass murder people in a subway. (he put on extra gore) They were laughing through the whole thing. Laughing! This is where I draw the line.

Section 8 · Oct 9, 2003, 10:32 pm

"The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst lovely things." - Plato

RebelWithanAK · Oct 9, 2003, 11:47 pm

Guess what, Section 8? I play violent computer games, too. I run over hapless pedestrians and shoot cops and do all that nasty shit online, and have been doing so since I ever set my hands on a computer. I still haven't killed anybody, raped anybody, stolen cars or sold drugs in real life, and I don't plan to in the near future. Your appeal to censorship is more hindrance than help; it's government legislating on a random set of morality plays for the expressed purpose of making a subject, you, feel better. You want a totalitarian state.

Section 8 · Oct 9, 2003, 11:55 pm

A) I don't want a tolatarian state, not at all. If you might have read some of my other posts you would have realised that that is the exact opposite of what I want.
All I'm saying is that it desensitises you.
B) I didn't say that it makes you commit violent acts. I would like the future generation to feel more compassion towards others, and not be brainwashed by senseless violence.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 10, 2003, 12:02 am

We already have senseless violence. What do you call Israel? Lebanon? Chile, Newark, Johannesburg, Beijing, Watts, Crown Heights, East End... censuring the depiction of violence is closing the barn door after the horse got away, a lie to yourself and everyone else as to the nature of man. If you want to make the world a better place, assassinate Bush. Arrest Sharon. Exile Kim Jong Il. But leave me to my Apocalypse Nows and my Grand Theft Autos and my Public Enemys...

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 12:03 am

You know what, I think I've actually changed my mind. Jesus that was weird. Sorry, Rebel I think I might have been insane. Looking over my posts I realized that I was just taking the form of something I despised. Weird.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 10, 2003, 12:08 am

You... you... changed your mind? *heart attack*

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 12:13 am

I bet you that that is the only time that will happen. Hey when I'm wrong I admit it. It's not like I'm some stubborn bastard about it.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 10, 2003, 12:14 am

Oh, really now? Let's talk socialism, then.

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 12:18 am

I highly doubt that you can change my convictions on Socialism. The only thing right now is that I'm thinking of Anarchy or Socialism. I have yet to decide fully.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 10, 2003, 12:26 am

Then you agree that being a stubborn bastard, while sometimes illogical, is not inherently tied to whether or not one's views are logical?

Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 12:28 am

yes, I should have phrased it as stubborn ignorance.

Oct 3, 2003, 11:04 pm	#21 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Sec 8, that kid was quite traumatized because it happened to her in real life. It would be lying to erase it from public consciousness. Makes me think of Bush's quote, "Bring 'em on!" when he never experienced for himself what war really was. Your example of napalm was vivid, but misguided. Greatwyrm, personal expression is not commercial expression. I certainly hope you're smart enough to know the difference. That, and the car companies coerced the government, not the other way around. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 4, 2003, 04:26 pm	#22 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Car companies? Are you totally derailed, or do you think that railroad car companies brought down our rail system somehow? Products are ideas in material form. Only food and wood grow on trees, and only water springs from the ground. All else was created the first time by Engineers. If you mean the demand of current business to get corporate welfare, you may want to realize that if the government was not allowed in business, corp welfare could not exist. Therefore corp welfare is not a product of free-market. Government sleeping with businessmen would be impossible if the two had nothing to do with each other. You may want to think a concept through before announcing it and looking like a fool. In a real free-market, a business that did not offer a relieable product for a fair price would be eaten by those that did. Since a man can grow his own food, monopoly would be impossible in the long run, because a better company would eventually kill them. The government should be limited to interferring with food, water, and shelter. Only those items can be withheld to gain power. Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 5, 2003, 10:28 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Exactly. I have no clue where you got this whole "railroad car" thing going, Greatwyrm, but the likes of Sloan, DuPont, and Moses and such are scary enough. As for what the government should guarantee, I'd add phone lines, power lines, and reliable transportation, too. Not that we're already having enough trouble with simple housing. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 6, 2003, 01:49 am	#26 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Actually, the government subsidized housing loans, but only for new constructions, and only to a certain grade. Thus, most cities were redlined, and most buildings, instead of being renovated, were abandoned for the explosive suburban growth far away from the city core - and out of the reach of the working class. At the same time, with architects' love for minimalism and cost efficiency came the soviet bloc-style public housing projects which gave even the term "project" a bad name. All in the name, I believe, of encouraging the popularity of the car over rail, which I believe was spurred by heavy influence from the car companies themselves. GM was our biggest company nationwide, and essentially effected the balance between roads and rails to set us apart from the rest of the industrialized world. You'll notice that rail was wildly successful everywhere but here, and it's not for lack of trying here - we had, up until WWII, the longest track mileage worldwide. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 6, 2003, 10:27 pm	#27 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	So you are trying to tell me that the railroads long practice of allowing frieght costs to climb and allowing a large labor union to grow used to the income granted by a virtual monopoly, had nothing to do with the fact that when an alternate way to move frieght they were totally unable to compete? Except by using the political system. GM had to take on the railroad. The railroad was doing the best it could to make moving frieght by truck illegal. So, of course, the motor company used the advantages it had to cut support for those very railroads. Seems to me that the practice of dividing up areas and running small local monopolies, such as the railroads employied at the time is being repeated today. Airlines, phone companies, utilities, are all following the same pattern. The airlines are currently asking for more and more government support, the utilities in California and simular areas are doing the same. Luckily it looks as if the internet may just kill the phone companies, but they are trying their best to make the government make free long distance calls over the internet illegal... All I ask is that you think about it...is the businessman the cause of the corruption, or the combination of government and business? Logical Fallicies Link

Oct 6, 2003, 12:58 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	Simple housing? Yeah right, the government has tripled the price of buying a house all in the name of protecting the poor. I guess it does protect them from inferior houses, they cannot even afford an inferior one... GM could not have done that to the railways had they not already been crippled.

Oct 8, 2003, 03:10 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	Well,well, well Section 8, finally something I agree with you on. I used to work in a PC Games shop in Sydney, and some of the games that I was helping to sell to kids, were just plain awful, points for running over people in car games were some of the mild examples, I ended up loosing my job when I wouldnt sell a PC game that was mostly about people being eaten alive in graphic detail by demons. The lady(?) was being urged by her piggy looking brat to get it, even being threatened, I ended up on principle denying her the sale as I didnt want to help turn this kid into a more hate filled monster than he already was. My Boss took over the sale, and I left two days later with my pay in discust.

Oct 8, 2003, 10:53 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	When my nephew was killing prostitutes after he fucked them, and then proceeding to mass murder people in a subway. (he put on extra gore) They were laughing through the whole thing. Laughing! This is where I draw the line.

Oct 9, 2003, 10:32 pm	#30 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	"The most effective kind of education is that a child should play amongst lovely things." - Plato

Oct 9, 2003, 11:47 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Guess what, Section 8? I play violent computer games, too. I run over hapless pedestrians and shoot cops and do all that nasty shit online, and have been doing so since I ever set my hands on a computer. I still haven't killed anybody, raped anybody, stolen cars or sold drugs in real life, and I don't plan to in the near future. Your appeal to censorship is more hindrance than help; it's government legislating on a random set of morality plays for the expressed purpose of making a subject, you, feel better. You want a totalitarian state. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 9, 2003, 11:55 pm	#32 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	A) I don't want a tolatarian state, not at all. If you might have read some of my other posts you would have realised that that is the exact opposite of what I want. All I'm saying is that it desensitises you. B) I didn't say that it makes you commit violent acts. I would like the future generation to feel more compassion towards others, and not be brainwashed by senseless violence.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:02 am	#33 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	We already have senseless violence. What do you call Israel? Lebanon? Chile, Newark, Johannesburg, Beijing, Watts, Crown Heights, East End... censuring the depiction of violence is closing the barn door after the horse got away, a lie to yourself and everyone else as to the nature of man. If you want to make the world a better place, assassinate Bush. Arrest Sharon. Exile Kim Jong Il. But leave me to my Apocalypse Nows and my Grand Theft Autos and my Public Enemys... . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:03 am	#34 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	You know what, I think I've actually changed my mind. Jesus that was weird. Sorry, Rebel I think I might have been insane. Looking over my posts I realized that I was just taking the form of something I despised. Weird.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:08 am	#35 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	You... you... changed your mind? heart attack . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:13 am	#36 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I bet you that that is the only time that will happen. Hey when I'm wrong I admit it. It's not like I'm some stubborn bastard about it.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:14 am	#37 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Oh, really now? Let's talk socialism, then. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:18 am	#38 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	I highly doubt that you can change my convictions on Socialism. The only thing right now is that I'm thinking of Anarchy or Socialism. I have yet to decide fully.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:26 am	#39 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Then you agree that being a stubborn bastard, while sometimes illogical, is not inherently tied to whether or not one's views are logical? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 10, 2003, 12:28 am	#40 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	yes, I should have phrased it as stubborn ignorance.