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Section 8 · Oct 10, 2003, 01:03 am

In Arizona many are dying in the desert. They hope to come here in order to feed their starving family. It takes ten years to achieve citizenship. They would probably dead by then. It is their moral obligation to come across the border illegally. What do you have to say to them Fallen Angel.

Fallen Angel · Oct 11, 2003, 02:21 am

Quote:

Originally posted by Section 8@10-10-2003 01:03 AM
In Arizona many are dying in the desert. They hope to come here in order to feed their starving family. It takes ten years to achieve citizenship. They would probably dead by then. It is their moral obligation to come across the border illegally. What do you have to say to them Fallen Angel.

Tough, their country doesnt give two rats about them, so why should I?
But if one or some staggered up on to my lawn I would of course as a good Christian give lots of water out to drink, and put them in the shade, then I would be on the phone.

Section 8 · Oct 11, 2003, 02:55 am

If they country doesn't care than you should because they're human. If you called the police, they would then most likely die. A great hypocrite you make. Saving their life, then condeming them to death.

Waychel · Oct 16, 2003, 12:29 am

Illegal immigrants have too many rights here.

There is one illegal man I know who is constantly evicting the people he rents to for some reason or another. He was able to buy these two houses which he rents using the money he has accumulated from worker compensation over the years. As it turns out, no more than 2 weeks into the country he lied to a farmer about having work experience on a farm in order to get a job. The farmer hired him, the man tipped the tractor he was using and hurt his hip. Ever since, he has been living on workers comp and has managed to buy 2 houses using that money, not working a day in his life since. He's not seriously disabled or anything either, he just walks with a slight limp.

That is just one example. Honestly, it is bullshit the benefits these people get here. Keep in mind that for every one of these stories, that is somebody living off taxpayer dollars, giving NOTHING back to this state. There are more people with stories like these than you would think. I come into contact with them every damn day.

While illegal immigrants may be people, how can you argue that they should receive more than their natural rights as such? They are people yes, but they are not citizens, so why should they be entitled to our money, our benefits, any of our aid at all? Why are they our obligation when they lack the responsibilities that we do, do not contribute to this state at all as we do (do not pay taxes as we do)?

The only motivation behind giving licensed to illegal aliens recently in California is so that they may be able to vote. Davis passed a law recently that allows anyone with a driver's license to vote without the hassle of registration. The whole thing is just a way to get illegal votes (literally).

That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit.

G. Adams · Oct 16, 2003, 11:15 am

thats your short term deficit, stuff you owe right now. In actual debt, you gotta add another 0 on the end there...

Waychel · Oct 16, 2003, 01:39 pm

Section 8 · Oct 17, 2003, 12:28 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
Illegal immigrants have too many rights here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

On the contrary many die every day attempting to get to the US. When they do, employers exploit them for cheap business.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
There is one illegal man I know who is constantly evicting the people he rents to for some reason or another. He was able to buy these two houses which he rents using the money he has accumulated from worker compensation over the years. As it turns out, no more than 2 weeks into the country he lied to a farmer about having work experience on a farm in order to get a job. The farmer hired him, the man tipped the tractor he was using and hurt his hip. Ever since, he has been living on workers comp and has managed to buy 2 houses using that money, not working a day in his life since. He's not seriously disabled or anything either, he just walks with a slight limp.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

This is just one person, and hardly reflects undocumented immigrants.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
That is just one example. Honestly, it is bullshit the benefits these people get here. Keep in mind that for every one of these stories, that is somebody living off taxpayer dollars, giving NOTHING back to this state. There are more people with stories like these than you would think. I come into contact with them every damn day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

The money is keeping people alive. The "bullshit benefits" are health care and water in order to prevent them from dying. As I said before, they lead an insanely hard life filled with exploitation and manual labor. May I ask you what occupaton you're in.

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by
That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Undeserved aid?! Would you rather see them die.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 17, 2003, 12:43 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

I'll ignore your fallacious argument for a second (you put far too much stock in an extreme example) for the purpose of answering this piece of detritus that has spewn from your fingertips - because obviously our federal deficit couldn't be from terrorist attacks, funding foreign wars, massive tax cuts, or anything policy-wise, could it? No, it has to be from those wishy-washy Democrats who spend FAR too much of our money trying to help people who haven't proven that they deserve it first by killing people we don't like! We'd rather spend more than half our budget bombing the SHIT out of the countries that these immigrants are coming from!

It's not as if illegal immigrants are taking jobs that true-blue Americans want - like you'd ever pick strawberries or wash dishes for $2 an hour - (and what, pray tell, do you define as a true-blue American? I don't see you speaking Tsalagi or Navajo), it's more like America's jobs are leaving America, especially since even developing countries like India have better schools than we do (Why is that? Am I saying that Bush's No-Child-Left-Behind Act isn't working? Yes, I am!) and our own companies are showing how patriotic they are (What? NAFTA and the WTO aren't giving us jobs? Say it ain't so!) and whatever state or federal support for keeping America working has been PISSED AWAY with a massive tax cut that puts us 5 TRILLION IN DEBT just when we were about to get started on the stupid Reagan deficit when he wanted to piss our money away building laser beams from space.

No, it couldn't be that, could it? It gotta be those darkies who wanna come into our country...

Waychel · Oct 17, 2003, 03:10 am

Well first of all, there is a large difference between a LEGAL resident and an illegal one, just as there is a difference between a citizen and an illegal alien. I am not saying that illegal immigrants should be denied human rights - just citizen priveledges.

You seem to think that I am totally isolationist and hate all immigrants, when I don't. I don't even hate illegal aliens, really. I just hate the fact that they receive as many benefits as they do here. They are not citizens or legal residents, so I do not understand why they should be entitled to the benefits of such.

I'm not saying that people who are here illegally don't deserve to be here, or asking for them to be deported, or claiming they take jobs away from citizens. I'm simply saying that unless they are going to pay taxes like the rest of us, they shouldn't be able to benefit from so much aid as a result of that taxes as they do.

There really is no reason why a person should be here illegally for the long-term in the first place. If you're going to live here, then apply for legal residenceship and pay taxes like the rest of us. The fact people are here illegally and allowed to live here as if they were legal is one thing (I don't see Britain, Australia or any other such countries being nearly as liberal either, BTW). But when they start to own property, get their own unions, receive workers compensation and get driver's licenses giving them the ability to vote, I think its going a bit too far.

BTW, if they were here legally, then the farmer would be forced to pay them minimum wage.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 17, 2003, 04:14 am

Man are YOU uninformed.

They're illegal because of blocks on American grantings of Visas, because we still have quotas to keep. According to policy, we want skilled people first, and relatives of American citizens second. They want job prospects first and political asylum second. Can you see the dislocation? They apply for Visas, we deny them. They know that there are still better job prospects for them here, and that if they stay here for seven years without getting caught, they can apply for citizenship. Get it?

The reason the UK or Australia don't have our immigration policy is because the UK doesn't get as nearly as many immigrants and Australia has a right-wing government in place. Ever hear of "queue-jumpers"? Oh, yeah, they LOVE political refugees there.

And, besides, you're sadly mistaken. Our tax dollars don't really go to them. They don't get workman's comp. They don't get health insurance. They don't get state aid because they don't have green cards. They're undocumented. In order to get workman's comp, health insurance, or any other state aid, you need a Visa or a Social Security number. They have neither.

Your example either proves an extremely clever high-level case of government fraud (which would land him in prison for the next 30 years, with a subsequent deportation) or it's completely bogus. Since an illegal immigrant cannot have documentation in order to own property, and since you didn't call the cops on this really ingenius criminal mastermind, I'd say it was the latter.

Waychel · Oct 18, 2003, 09:11 pm

Of course we have standards regarding people who apply for visas and green cards with which to enter the country upon. Would you give a visa to someone who wants to enter into the US without education or job qualifications in mind? We don't want to bring people into this country who are just going to leech from our welfare system, or at the most only take fast food jobs here for the rest of their lives. That is why we provide people who are simply looking for farm and other work with green cards in the first place.

In California you are not required to have a green card, visa, social security number or the like to receive aid from welfare; to be eligable, you only need have dependents.

One of the reasons other countries don't get as many illegal immigrants is because they don't offer as many benefits to them as we do here, for one thing. :P

Also, considering I just got finishing doing a living trust and preparing several deeds for a woman the other day who resides here illegally, I can tell you for a fact that illegals CAN (and do) own property. Not only that, but they can setup living trusts and the like for their children as well, obviously.

I would say that you seem to be misinformed.

G. Adams · Oct 19, 2003, 08:52 am

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
Well first of all, there is a large difference between a LEGAL resident and an illegal one, just as there is a difference between a citizen and an illegal alien. I am not saying that illegal immigrants should be denied human rights - just citizen priveledges.

You seem to think that I am totally isolationist and hate all immigrants, when I don't. I don't even hate illegal aliens, really. I just hate the fact that they receive as many benefits as they do here. They are not citizens or legal residents, so I do not understand why they should be entitled to the benefits of such.

I'm not saying that people who are here illegally don't deserve to be here, or asking for them to be deported, or claiming they take jobs away from citizens. I'm simply saying that unless they are going to pay taxes like the rest of us, they shouldn't be able to benefit from so much aid as a result of that taxes as they do.

There really is no reason why a person should be here illegally for the long-term in the first place. If you're going to live here, then apply for legal residenceship and pay taxes like the rest of us. The fact people are here illegally and allowed to live here as if they were legal is one thing (I don't see Britain, Australia or any other such countries being nearly as liberal either, BTW). But when they start to own property, get their own unions, receive workers compensation and get driver's licenses giving them the ability to vote, I think its going a bit too far.

BTW, if they were here legally, then the farmer would be forced to pay them minimum wage.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Oh man how wrong you are about Britain, well in some ways. In Britian it is illegal for illegal immigrants to work, and this is actually well enforced. In the US it isn't because the governments know the agricultural industry practically rests on that cheap labour, whereas we have a small specialised agricultural industry that can deal with paying all its workers minimum wage. However, because it does stamp down on this, all immigrants who come here apply for residence while they are here (no work visa while waiting) the government dishes out for them houses, cars, household appliances, food vouchers, mobile phones....etc We get in Britain around 100 000 a year coming into britain and waiting for residence, all the while being provided for.

I support all that by the way, though I do think work visas should be handed out, and once they get a job those benefits can be cut back a bit.

And the reason we don't get so many immigrants as you do is because we are a little island at the far edge of a wealthy continent. If your an immigrant and you make it to Germany, why push on throught Belgium and France to get to Britain? You've already reached a safe zone with decent jobs.

The US however has Mexico right next to it. Perhaps you should make some benefits for trading with Mexico, thus increasing wealth there, and improving living standards. Thus immigrants might just reach Mexico and think its not so bad.

Waychel · Oct 19, 2003, 01:01 pm

I wasn't aware that Mexico was our responsibility.

Also, thank you for proving my point as to the reason illegals do not make anywhere near such an effort to enter Britain or any other similar countries. :p

I think a more economic solution would be to remove many of the benefits illegals receive here, such as being able to work without a green card, visa or the like, for one thing and receiving financial aid among others. If you were to remove the incentive for coming and staying here illegally, we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do and there wouldn't be as big of a problem as we have now. Infact, many people come here simply to give birth and receive free Medicare only to return back to Mexico.

I think regardless of illegality or legality, there should be some type of medical aid given if it is necessary - but only if necessary. As it is, illegals where I live flood emergency rooms over little things as a stubbed toe because there is little to no regulation in regard to the extent of medical they are to be provided with.

G. Adams · Oct 19, 2003, 01:06 pm

<blockquote>Quote:<hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,)
I wasn't aware that Mexico was our responsibility.

Also, thank you for proving my point as to the reason illegals do not make anywhere near such an effort to enter Britain or any other similar countries. :p

I think a more economic solution would be to remove many of the benefits illegals receive here, such as being able to work without a green card, visa or the like, for one thing and receiving financial aid among others. If you were to remove the incentive for coming and staying here illegally, we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do and there wouldn't be as big of a problem as we have now. Infact, many people come here simply to give birth and receive free Medicare only to return back to Mexico.<hr size="1" /></blockquote>

Mexico is not your responsibility, but you would both benefit.

People will still go to America because you have spent 200 years portraying yourself as the land of freedom and oppurtunity. Most people don't have that, you keep toppling their governments (regarding South America), which isn't conducive to freedom and oppurtunity. People believe they can make it in America. So they will still try to get in.

Waychel · Oct 19, 2003, 01:15 pm

Yes, but those same people will make the effort to become legal residents, benefit from education, etc.

Also, I do not see why we could not benefit just the same from denying illegals most of the outrageous benefits they receive here. That would reduce illegal immigration enough and would make more sense than pouring millions of dollars in more aid than we already have into Mexico.

The majority of these benefits are unique to our state alone. If the other states don't have them, why should we? Especially when most of these benefits came into affect only recently?

fedfem · Oct 19, 2003, 01:32 pm

I am confused. Do you mean Resident Aliens or Illegals. I cannot see how illegal immigrants can own property or receive worker's comp.

G. Adams · Oct 19, 2003, 01:33 pm

hmm...

okay, assume that there is nothing for immigrants (or immigrants in waiting)

what would you suggest they have in terms of provisions from state or federal government?

Waychel · Oct 19, 2003, 01:45 pm

My argument isn't against legal residents, legal immigrants or immigrants in waiting - simply illegal immigrants who reside here and receive numerous benefits, many times without working.

Illegal aliens can receive workers compensation if they are injured on the job. If you are working for your employer when you are injured, you are eligable for worker's compensation regardless of your residential status.

As for owning property, you don't need to even be in the US to own property. I have done a trust for someone in the past who left their estate to a relative in Germany. There are no laws regarding residenceship in order to own property in the US because of this. Likewise, there are many corporations from out of the country whom buy property in the US to operate their business here as well.

allenclyde · Dec 9, 2005, 12:55 pm

Quote:

Quote by: Waychel

My argument isn't against legal residents, legal immigrants or immigrants in waiting - simply illegal immigrants who reside here and receive numerous benefits, many times without working.

Illegal aliens can receive workers compensation if they are injured on the job. If you are working for your employer when you are injured, you are eligable for worker's compensation regardless of your residential status.

As for owning property, you don't need to even be in the US to own property. I have done a trust for someone in the past who left their estate to a relative in Germany. There are no laws regarding residenceship in order to own property in the US because of this. Likewise, there are many corporations from out of the country whom buy property in the US to operate their business here as well.

I wear a tee shirt that says "Welcome To America GO HOME" I have some sympathy for the wet backs, but damned little. They are ruled by a heartless oligarchy. They need to set things right there instead of bringing their diseases here to the US. If they want to take their country away from the tyrants owning Mexico I'll donate to the arms purchases they's need to do so.

As for foreigners or foreign corporations owning any property in the US. I hate the concept.

I firmly believe in America for Americans. We have enough problems of our own. We do not need any foreigners bringing us theirs.

The Monroe Doctrine sings beautiful music in my heart.

BTW I'd like to see all property owned by multinational corporations confiscated by the state.

Boetie · Dec 9, 2005, 01:18 pm

Quote:

Waychel posts:
Illegal aliens can receive workers compensation if they are injured on the job. If you are working for your employer when you are injured, you are eligable for worker's compensation regardless of your residential status.

The above doesn't address those illegal aliens that are exploited. There have been cases where illegal aliens working in packing houses that have not been given a paycheck for a weeks work under the threat of being deported.

Many illegal aliens do not know our laws and in the construction companies these illegal aliens are told they are independents, thus making it possible for these construction firms to get away with complying with the law with respects to employees.

The only stories ever told are the ones where illegal aliens are getting some benefit in this countries. Rare are the stories told of the illegal aliens being exploited and this isn't because these cases of exploitation are rare.

Oct 16, 2003, 12:29 am	#24 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Illegal immigrants have too many rights here. There is one illegal man I know who is constantly evicting the people he rents to for some reason or another. He was able to buy these two houses which he rents using the money he has accumulated from worker compensation over the years. As it turns out, no more than 2 weeks into the country he lied to a farmer about having work experience on a farm in order to get a job. The farmer hired him, the man tipped the tractor he was using and hurt his hip. Ever since, he has been living on workers comp and has managed to buy 2 houses using that money, not working a day in his life since. He's not seriously disabled or anything either, he just walks with a slight limp. That is just one example. Honestly, it is bullshit the benefits these people get here. Keep in mind that for every one of these stories, that is somebody living off taxpayer dollars, giving NOTHING back to this state. There are more people with stories like these than you would think. I come into contact with them every damn day. While illegal immigrants may be people, how can you argue that they should receive more than their natural rights as such? They are people yes, but they are not citizens, so why should they be entitled to our money, our benefits, any of our aid at all? Why are they our obligation when they lack the responsibilities that we do, do not contribute to this state at all as we do (do not pay taxes as we do)? The only motivation behind giving licensed to illegal aliens recently in California is so that they may be able to vote. Davis passed a law recently that allows anyone with a driver's license to vote without the hassle of registration. The whole thing is just a way to get illegal votes (literally). That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 16, 2003, 11:15 am	#25 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	thats your short term deficit, stuff you owe right now. In actual debt, you gotta add another 0 on the end there... Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 16, 2003, 01:39 pm	#26 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	LOL! Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 17, 2003, 12:28 am	#27 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by Illegal immigrants have too many rights here.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> On the contrary many die every day attempting to get to the US. When they do, employers exploit them for cheap business. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by There is one illegal man I know who is constantly evicting the people he rents to for some reason or another. He was able to buy these two houses which he rents using the money he has accumulated from worker compensation over the years. As it turns out, no more than 2 weeks into the country he lied to a farmer about having work experience on a farm in order to get a job. The farmer hired him, the man tipped the tractor he was using and hurt his hip. Ever since, he has been living on workers comp and has managed to buy 2 houses using that money, not working a day in his life since. He's not seriously disabled or anything either, he just walks with a slight limp.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> This is just one person, and hardly reflects undocumented immigrants. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by That is just one example. Honestly, it is bullshit the benefits these people get here. Keep in mind that for every one of these stories, that is somebody living off taxpayer dollars, giving NOTHING back to this state. There are more people with stories like these than you would think. I come into contact with them every damn day.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> The money is keeping people alive. The "bullshit benefits" are health care and water in order to prevent them from dying. As I said before, they lead an insanely hard life filled with exploitation and manual labor. May I ask you what occupaton you're in. </span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Undeserved aid?! Would you rather see them die.

Oct 17, 2003, 12:43 am	#28 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) That is the bottom line as to why they get all this undeserved aid. No wonder we're suffering from $400,000,000 worth of deficit.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> I'll ignore your fallacious argument for a second (you put far too much stock in an extreme example) for the purpose of answering this piece of detritus that has spewn from your fingertips - because obviously our federal deficit couldn't be from terrorist attacks, funding foreign wars, massive tax cuts, or anything policy-wise, could it? No, it has to be from those wishy-washy Democrats who spend FAR too much of our money trying to help people who haven't proven that they deserve it first by killing people we don't like! We'd rather spend more than half our budget bombing the SHIT out of the countries that these immigrants are coming from! It's not as if illegal immigrants are taking jobs that true-blue Americans want - like you'd ever pick strawberries or wash dishes for $2 an hour - (and what, pray tell, do you define as a true-blue American? I don't see you speaking Tsalagi or Navajo), it's more like America's jobs are leaving America, especially since even developing countries like India have better schools than we do (Why is that? Am I saying that Bush's No-Child-Left-Behind Act isn't working? Yes, I am!) and our own companies are showing how patriotic they are (What? NAFTA and the WTO aren't giving us jobs? Say it ain't so!) and whatever state or federal support for keeping America working has been PISSED AWAY with a massive tax cut that puts us 5 TRILLION IN DEBT just when we were about to get started on the stupid Reagan deficit when he wanted to piss our money away building laser beams from space. No, it couldn't be that, could it? It gotta be those darkies who wanna come into our country... . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 10, 2003, 01:03 am	#21 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	In Arizona many are dying in the desert. They hope to come here in order to feed their starving family. It takes ten years to achieve citizenship. They would probably dead by then. It is their moral obligation to come across the border illegally. What do you have to say to them Fallen Angel.

Oct 11, 2003, 02:55 am	#23 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	If they country doesn't care than you should because they're human. If you called the police, they would then most likely die. A great hypocrite you make. Saving their life, then condeming them to death.

Oct 17, 2003, 03:10 am	#29 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Well first of all, there is a large difference between a LEGAL resident and an illegal one, just as there is a difference between a citizen and an illegal alien. I am not saying that illegal immigrants should be denied human rights - just citizen priveledges. You seem to think that I am totally isolationist and hate all immigrants, when I don't. I don't even hate illegal aliens, really. I just hate the fact that they receive as many benefits as they do here. They are not citizens or legal residents, so I do not understand why they should be entitled to the benefits of such. I'm not saying that people who are here illegally don't deserve to be here, or asking for them to be deported, or claiming they take jobs away from citizens. I'm simply saying that unless they are going to pay taxes like the rest of us, they shouldn't be able to benefit from so much aid as a result of that taxes as they do. There really is no reason why a person should be here illegally for the long-term in the first place. If you're going to live here, then apply for legal residenceship and pay taxes like the rest of us. The fact people are here illegally and allowed to live here as if they were legal is one thing (I don't see Britain, Australia or any other such countries being nearly as liberal either, BTW). But when they start to own property, get their own unions, receive workers compensation and get driver's licenses giving them the ability to vote, I think its going a bit too far. BTW, if they were here legally, then the farmer would be forced to pay them minimum wage. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 17, 2003, 04:14 am	#30 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Man are YOU uninformed. They're illegal because of blocks on American grantings of Visas, because we still have quotas to keep. According to policy, we want skilled people first, and relatives of American citizens second. They want job prospects first and political asylum second. Can you see the dislocation? They apply for Visas, we deny them. They know that there are still better job prospects for them here, and that if they stay here for seven years without getting caught, they can apply for citizenship. Get it? The reason the UK or Australia don't have our immigration policy is because the UK doesn't get as nearly as many immigrants and Australia has a right-wing government in place. Ever hear of "queue-jumpers"? Oh, yeah, they LOVE political refugees there. And, besides, you're sadly mistaken. Our tax dollars don't really go to them. They don't get workman's comp. They don't get health insurance. They don't get state aid because they don't have green cards. They're undocumented. In order to get workman's comp, health insurance, or any other state aid, you need a Visa or a Social Security number. They have neither. Your example either proves an extremely clever high-level case of government fraud (which would land him in prison for the next 30 years, with a subsequent deportation) or it's completely bogus. Since an illegal immigrant cannot have documentation in order to own property, and since you didn't call the cops on this really ingenius criminal mastermind, I'd say it was the latter. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 18, 2003, 09:11 pm	#31 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Of course we have standards regarding people who apply for visas and green cards with which to enter the country upon. Would you give a visa to someone who wants to enter into the US without education or job qualifications in mind? We don't want to bring people into this country who are just going to leech from our welfare system, or at the most only take fast food jobs here for the rest of their lives. That is why we provide people who are simply looking for farm and other work with green cards in the first place. In California you are not required to have a green card, visa, social security number or the like to receive aid from welfare; to be eligable, you only need have dependents. One of the reasons other countries don't get as many illegal immigrants is because they don't offer as many benefits to them as we do here, for one thing. :P Also, considering I just got finishing doing a living trust and preparing several deeds for a woman the other day who resides here illegally, I can tell you for a fact that illegals CAN (and do) own property. Not only that, but they can setup living trusts and the like for their children as well, obviously. I would say that you seem to be misinformed. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 19, 2003, 08:52 am	#32 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) Well first of all, there is a large difference between a LEGAL resident and an illegal one, just as there is a difference between a citizen and an illegal alien. I am not saying that illegal immigrants should be denied human rights - just citizen priveledges. You seem to think that I am totally isolationist and hate all immigrants, when I don't. I don't even hate illegal aliens, really. I just hate the fact that they receive as many benefits as they do here. They are not citizens or legal residents, so I do not understand why they should be entitled to the benefits of such. I'm not saying that people who are here illegally don't deserve to be here, or asking for them to be deported, or claiming they take jobs away from citizens. I'm simply saying that unless they are going to pay taxes like the rest of us, they shouldn't be able to benefit from so much aid as a result of that taxes as they do. There really is no reason why a person should be here illegally for the long-term in the first place. If you're going to live here, then apply for legal residenceship and pay taxes like the rest of us. The fact people are here illegally and allowed to live here as if they were legal is one thing (I don't see Britain, Australia or any other such countries being nearly as liberal either, BTW). But when they start to own property, get their own unions, receive workers compensation and get driver's licenses giving them the ability to vote, I think its going a bit too far. BTW, if they were here legally, then the farmer would be forced to pay them minimum wage.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Oh man how wrong you are about Britain, well in some ways. In Britian it is illegal for illegal immigrants to work, and this is actually well enforced. In the US it isn't because the governments know the agricultural industry practically rests on that cheap labour, whereas we have a small specialised agricultural industry that can deal with paying all its workers minimum wage. However, because it does stamp down on this, all immigrants who come here apply for residence while they are here (no work visa while waiting) the government dishes out for them houses, cars, household appliances, food vouchers, mobile phones....etc We get in Britain around 100 000 a year coming into britain and waiting for residence, all the while being provided for. I support all that by the way, though I do think work visas should be handed out, and once they get a job those benefits can be cut back a bit. And the reason we don't get so many immigrants as you do is because we are a little island at the far edge of a wealthy continent. If your an immigrant and you make it to Germany, why push on throught Belgium and France to get to Britain? You've already reached a safe zone with decent jobs. The US however has Mexico right next to it. Perhaps you should make some benefits for trading with Mexico, thus increasing wealth there, and improving living standards. Thus immigrants might just reach Mexico and think its not so bad. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 19, 2003, 01:01 pm	#33 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	I wasn't aware that Mexico was our responsibility. Also, thank you for proving my point as to the reason illegals do not make anywhere near such an effort to enter Britain or any other similar countries. :p I think a more economic solution would be to remove many of the benefits illegals receive here, such as being able to work without a green card, visa or the like, for one thing and receiving financial aid among others. If you were to remove the incentive for coming and staying here illegally, we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do and there wouldn't be as big of a problem as we have now. Infact, many people come here simply to give birth and receive free Medicare only to return back to Mexico. I think regardless of illegality or legality, there should be some type of medical aid given if it is necessary - but only if necessary. As it is, illegals where I live flood emergency rooms over little things as a stubbed toe because there is little to no regulation in regard to the extent of medical they are to be provided with. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:06 pm	#34 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	</span><blockquote><span class="smallfont">Quote:</span><hr size="1" />Originally Posted by (Waychel,) I wasn't aware that Mexico was our responsibility. Also, thank you for proving my point as to the reason illegals do not make anywhere near such an effort to enter Britain or any other similar countries. :p I think a more economic solution would be to remove many of the benefits illegals receive here, such as being able to work without a green card, visa or the like, for one thing and receiving financial aid among others. If you were to remove the incentive for coming and staying here illegally, we wouldn't have as many illegals as we do and there wouldn't be as big of a problem as we have now. Infact, many people come here simply to give birth and receive free Medicare only to return back to Mexico.<hr size="1" /></blockquote><span class='postcolor'> Mexico is not your responsibility, but you would both benefit. People will still go to America because you have spent 200 years portraying yourself as the land of freedom and oppurtunity. Most people don't have that, you keep toppling their governments (regarding South America), which isn't conducive to freedom and oppurtunity. People believe they can make it in America. So they will still try to get in. Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 19, 2003, 01:15 pm	#35 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	Yes, but those same people will make the effort to become legal residents, benefit from education, etc. Also, I do not see why we could not benefit just the same from denying illegals most of the outrageous benefits they receive here. That would reduce illegal immigration enough and would make more sense than pouring millions of dollars in more aid than we already have into Mexico. The majority of these benefits are unique to our state alone. If the other states don't have them, why should we? Especially when most of these benefits came into affect only recently? Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:32 pm	#36 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	I am confused. Do you mean Resident Aliens or Illegals. I cannot see how illegal immigrants can own property or receive worker's comp.

Oct 19, 2003, 01:33 pm	#37 (permalink) (top)
G. Adams Fyrdman Location: Middlesbrough UK Posts: 4,152	hmm... okay, assume that there is nothing for immigrants (or immigrants in waiting) what would you suggest they have in terms of provisions from state or federal government? Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery. Winston Churchill

Oct 19, 2003, 01:45 pm	#38 (permalink) (top)
Waychel Supercalifragilistic Posts: 431	My argument isn't against legal residents, legal immigrants or immigrants in waiting - simply illegal immigrants who reside here and receive numerous benefits, many times without working. Illegal aliens can receive workers compensation if they are injured on the job. If you are working for your employer when you are injured, you are eligable for worker's compensation regardless of your residential status. As for owning property, you don't need to even be in the US to own property. I have done a trust for someone in the past who left their estate to a relative in Germany. There are no laws regarding residenceship in order to own property in the US because of this. Likewise, there are many corporations from out of the country whom buy property in the US to operate their business here as well. Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.