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Section 8 · Sep 30, 2003, 12:03 am

OK, for all our pals in the UK this deals with Columbine, a school where two gunman go to the school and kill about eleven students. I believe that one of them survived and is serving a 200 some year sentence. The question; is this just. Say a bunch of jocks always made fun of him, taunted him, beat the shit out of him, and embarassed him. Then his teachers said that you're getting failing grades and if you don't pass the test your gonna be a fuck up your whole life and die drunk and peniless. So then he fails the test. Everyone laughs and taunts him even more. He goes back the next day and shoots up the school, because he snapped. Who's to blame?

Have Fun
Shalom

Geoff332 · Sep 30, 2003, 12:18 am

Does he deserve a life sentence? Probably. Even if it is in no way his fault (something I would dispute), then the possibility of him reoffending (snapping again) would suggest he should not be in public. In any case, the individuals have to accept a share of responsibility for their actions. A lot of kids are bullied at school, not many of them try to kill everyone. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, one of them falls on the choices that the individuals make.

What I see as the biggest problem is the tendancy to blame him entirely -- without reference to the context in which it happened. While he must accept some responsibility, so must the entire community within which it happened. I noticed that soon after the killings, there were moves to blame Marilon Manson (and other people). There seemed to be a concerted effort by the entire community to blame anyone except themselves. In the aftermath of these killings, I saw a lot of blame-shifting: efforts to blame some- (any-) one else. If the media is to be believed, no-one was responsible for these killings. It is probably closer to the truth to say everyone was responsible to some degree.

This is the real problem and why I expect things like this will happen again.

Section 8 · Sep 30, 2003, 12:21 am

Society has yet to realise that they're not perfect. What we should do is make an effort to reform this so that it doesn't happen again. Also I think the kid was definently mentally ill.

Have Fun
Shalom

RebelWithanAK · Sep 30, 2003, 01:27 am

Section 8, the two gunmen, Klebold and Harris, are both dead. The allegation that they were mentally ill is completely uncorroborated. In fact, your very mention of such an off-hand excuse further proves that you choose not to criticize society at large but for the inconvenience of it. This event was the fault of the twisted social malaise of modern suburbia - both in the parents and the children, the lack of concern with school counselors and guides, and the prevalence of guns. None of which are easy answers, because they implicate pretty much everybody.

Section 8 · Sep 30, 2003, 10:04 am

Rebel, you took me the wrong way. I was blaming society and the tauntings, proffesors, etc. They just snapped faster than most do. They migth have some sort of very mild mental disease, or at least they do snap faster than most. You're right society was the main perpetrator, and not just a few kids. Almost the entire school system. I thought they did an interview with one of them, oh well I see a lot of interviews, thanks for setting me straight.

Have Fun
Shalom

fedfem · Sep 30, 2003, 10:46 am

This won't be popular-but I blame the parents. Society is not an entity that can be changed without changing the individuals in that society. High School years are the time in life to transition; to thicken the skin, to become prepared for adulthood and to form societal groups. University or the workplace is where cooperation between groups and diverse individuals are formed; It is a process. Parents have a duty to guide the child through the transition. Without Love and acceptance and an ear after a bad day, it can add up and leave a kid vulnerable.

RebelWithanAK · Sep 30, 2003, 11:28 am

For once we agree - as the only true venues for a high school student in suburbia are home and school, if school is a tortorous process of alienation, then how does the home life compensate? After all, how did the kids have enough free time to amass the stockpile of weaponry that the parents disavowed all knowledge of, and what were they doing bowling at 6 am?

Geoff332 · Sep 30, 2003, 07:47 pm

Quote:

Society is not an entity that can be changed without changing the individuals in that society.

Very true. It might be a little more complex than that in reality (institutional forces and all that), but there's no argument that any changes need to start with individuals and that 'society' is not a concrete entity seperate from the individuals that constitue it. (Although, I do have that wonderful scene from The Life of Brian running through my head: "We're all individuals," "You're all different," "We're all different," "I'm not," "Shhh, Shhh")

Quote:

This won't be popular-but I blame the parents.

Yes and no. Yes, the parents definately must share some of the responsibility. There's no question about that. Possibly even the lion's share.

No, they are not the only ones to blame. If anyone entertains the possibility of blaming Klebold and Harris, then they must also blame the other students -- those responible for the alienation. If Klebold and Harris are old enough to be responsible for murder (which I think they are), then other students are old enough to be responsible for creating the environment that produces murderers. But that might involve blaming the people who were most directly and badly effected by the shootings, which is never going to be a popular move.

Then there is the third group, which is more complex. All the people who sat around and watched things like this happening. They may not have actively done anything to alientate the soon-to-be killers; but nor did they do anything to alieviate or mitigate this. Basically, they stood by and watched it happen. Because they didn't care, because they didn't want to be next, because they thought it was a normal part of growing up, because they didn't pay attention enough to notice. This means blaming almost every individual in the community to some extent

In the face of understandable anger and horror, it's very difficult to look at one's-self as being culpable.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 1, 2003, 12:20 am

Well, this is why I say it's society at large that is sick - and it's pretty much a self-imposed illness. I think the our very physical surroundings in this culture is painfully flawed, fueling the distortion and exacerbation of social connections and problems, brought on by the profit margins of GM and Ford...

Fallen Angel · Oct 8, 2003, 03:29 am

The blame game, taking responsibility for your own actions, is a big step in your maturity as a person.
He could have just had it out one on one with his main persecuter after school, that would have got him respect, self respect if nothing else.
Blowing away helpless people is the act of a coward.

Section 8 · Oct 8, 2003, 10:54 am

He just broke. He snapped like a twig. He was so bitter and filled with hate he couldn't think of anything else to do. He wanted to end it, but he wanted revenge first.

GreatWyrm of Babylon · Oct 8, 2003, 11:17 pm

You cannot change man to fit society, you must adapt society to fit man. Use the tool you have, do not pretend it is something else and blame it when it breaks.

RebelWithanAK · Oct 8, 2003, 11:40 pm

We weren't saying it was entirely the fault of the two Columbine killers - which would be seeking to change the man. Our society as it stands now simply isn't humanitarian, and we should seek it to fit the needs and wants of as many people as is possible. I think we can both agree this is essentially the case; where we diverge is what that new society would look like.

Impenitent · Oct 9, 2003, 12:29 am

who pulled the triggers?
then they have the blame... the two individuals, not anyone/anything else...

do you want to complicate matters by blaming things that had nothing to do with it? music and movies and parents didn't pull the triggers, it was none of their faults... the shooters pulled the triggers and they reap what they sow... the responsibility is theirs alone...

but we must blame society... people can't be evil... wrong... individual actors are judged for their individual acts...

but if we only had utopia where people had no choice but to live the way the society demanded... no freedom, no joy, no love, no passion... no thanks

Section 8 · Oct 9, 2003, 01:07 am

They didn't just wake up one morning and say "hey I feel like blowing the shit out of eleven people today." In order to prevent this from happening again one must find the root of the problem and eliminate it.

Geoff332 · Oct 9, 2003, 01:37 am

Quote:

people can't be evil...

I never made that claim. I never even implied it. I did imply that it is rarely that simple.

Quote:

the shooters pulled the triggers and they reap what they sow... the responsibility is theirs alone...

So only the person who actually commits the act is ever responsible. Don't most countries have some form of conspiracy laws -- where if you are involved in planning or motivating a criminal act, you are guilty of that act? If this sort of law unjust?

Quote:

but if we only had utopia where people had no choice but to live the way the society demanded... no freedom, no joy, no love, no passion... no thanks

I've never argued for a utopia -- nor do my arguments require a utopia. Any notion of a utopian society -- however it is conceived -- has nothing to do with attributing responsibility more broadly than just to the two individuals.

Impenitent · Oct 11, 2003, 12:45 am

8. the root of the problem was the FREEDOM they had to do the deed... do you really want to do away with freedom? good luck

Geoff,
1. people can't be evil was sarcasm, they usually are evil

2. conspiracy laws are good but there must be direct concrete linkage... person x did thus and so... not blaming song lyrics... some verses in the bible are far worse

3. that was for the usual liberal whiners who want to blame society instead of the actual shooters

antonio · Mar 29, 2006, 10:07 pm

In this scenario I think the one to blame is both the kids and the people that surround the kids as well.People that are always around a teenager are the people that most im pact they have in them. If you are constantly around people that are making fun of you and telling you that you won't be able to make it, there is only so much that person can take. Then when they are about to explode or when they do explode for that matter, people dont take it as serious, becuase they think it is a joke. Thats enough for today I will speak my midn some more on this.

Morgan_Freeman · Mar 30, 2006, 12:32 am

Blame the gun manufacturers!!!!!

No, BLAME CANADA!!!!

phoenix_fire · Mar 30, 2006, 01:00 am

I don't want to detract from the blame that is due the shooters. I believe that everyone should be held responsible for his/her own actions and have to deal with whatever consequences ensue. On the other hand, however, I have had some experience with bullying. The fact of the matter is that schools really don't do a lot to curtail it. They usually turn a blind eye. Parents of bullies are even worse. They usually take a "not my perfect little angel" stance and try to say that the kid had a 2X4 to the head coming to them. Apparently, the kids that are bullied are "just not right" or are "instigators". Often parents will participate in gossipping about the "poor little freaks". Other children don't want to be friends with children who are bullied for the sake of their own social standing. It is horrible and it can break people in ways that usually aren't visible. The social structure in most high schools is sick and needs to be amended.

Sep 30, 2003, 01:27 am	#4 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Section 8, the two gunmen, Klebold and Harris, are both dead. The allegation that they were mentally ill is completely uncorroborated. In fact, your very mention of such an off-hand excuse further proves that you choose not to criticize society at large but for the inconvenience of it. This event was the fault of the twisted social malaise of modern suburbia - both in the parents and the children, the lack of concern with school counselors and guides, and the prevalence of guns. None of which are easy answers, because they implicate pretty much everybody. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Sep 30, 2003, 11:28 am	#7 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	For once we agree - as the only true venues for a high school student in suburbia are home and school, if school is a tortorous process of alienation, then how does the home life compensate? After all, how did the kids have enough free time to amass the stockpile of weaponry that the parents disavowed all knowledge of, and what were they doing bowling at 6 am? . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 1, 2003, 12:20 am	#9 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	Well, this is why I say it's society at large that is sick - and it's pretty much a self-imposed illness. I think the our very physical surroundings in this culture is painfully flawed, fueling the distortion and exacerbation of social connections and problems, brought on by the profit margins of GM and Ford... . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 8, 2003, 11:40 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
RebelWithanAK Igneous Magma Location: New York City Posts: 739	We weren't saying it was entirely the fault of the two Columbine killers - which would be seeking to change the man. Our society as it stands now simply isn't humanitarian, and we should seek it to fit the needs and wants of as many people as is possible. I think we can both agree this is essentially the case; where we diverge is what that new society would look like. . . . whenever any government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute a new government, laying its foundations on such principles and organizing its powers in such forms as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness.

Oct 9, 2003, 12:29 am	#14 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	who pulled the triggers? then they have the blame... the two individuals, not anyone/anything else... do you want to complicate matters by blaming things that had nothing to do with it? music and movies and parents didn't pull the triggers, it was none of their faults... the shooters pulled the triggers and they reap what they sow... the responsibility is theirs alone... but we must blame society... people can't be evil... wrong... individual actors are judged for their individual acts... but if we only had utopia where people had no choice but to live the way the society demanded... no freedom, no joy, no love, no passion... no thanks "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Sep 30, 2003, 12:03 am	#1 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	OK, for all our pals in the UK this deals with Columbine, a school where two gunman go to the school and kill about eleven students. I believe that one of them survived and is serving a 200 some year sentence. The question; is this just. Say a bunch of jocks always made fun of him, taunted him, beat the shit out of him, and embarassed him. Then his teachers said that you're getting failing grades and if you don't pass the test your gonna be a fuck up your whole life and die drunk and peniless. So then he fails the test. Everyone laughs and taunts him even more. He goes back the next day and shoots up the school, because he snapped. Who's to blame? Have Fun Shalom

Sep 30, 2003, 12:18 am	#2 (permalink) (top)
Geoff332 Igneous Magma Location: New Zealand Posts: 309	Does he deserve a life sentence? Probably. Even if it is in no way his fault (something I would dispute), then the possibility of him reoffending (snapping again) would suggest he should not be in public. In any case, the individuals have to accept a share of responsibility for their actions. A lot of kids are bullied at school, not many of them try to kill everyone. There are a lot of reasons why this is the case, one of them falls on the choices that the individuals make. What I see as the biggest problem is the tendancy to blame him entirely -- without reference to the context in which it happened. While he must accept some responsibility, so must the entire community within which it happened. I noticed that soon after the killings, there were moves to blame Marilon Manson (and other people). There seemed to be a concerted effort by the entire community to blame anyone except themselves. In the aftermath of these killings, I saw a lot of blame-shifting: efforts to blame some- (any-) one else. If the media is to be believed, no-one was responsible for these killings. It is probably closer to the truth to say everyone was responsible to some degree. This is the real problem and why I expect things like this will happen again.

Sep 30, 2003, 12:21 am	#3 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Society has yet to realise that they're not perfect. What we should do is make an effort to reform this so that it doesn't happen again. Also I think the kid was definently mentally ill. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 30, 2003, 10:04 am	#5 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	Rebel, you took me the wrong way. I was blaming society and the tauntings, proffesors, etc. They just snapped faster than most do. They migth have some sort of very mild mental disease, or at least they do snap faster than most. You're right society was the main perpetrator, and not just a few kids. Almost the entire school system. I thought they did an interview with one of them, oh well I see a lot of interviews, thanks for setting me straight. Have Fun Shalom

Sep 30, 2003, 10:46 am	#6 (permalink) (top)
fedfem Igneous Magma Location: Northeastern, USA Posts: 606	This won't be popular-but I blame the parents. Society is not an entity that can be changed without changing the individuals in that society. High School years are the time in life to transition; to thicken the skin, to become prepared for adulthood and to form societal groups. University or the workplace is where cooperation between groups and diverse individuals are formed; It is a process. Parents have a duty to guide the child through the transition. Without Love and acceptance and an ear after a bad day, it can add up and leave a kid vulnerable.

Oct 8, 2003, 03:29 am	#10 (permalink) (top)
Fallen Angel Igneous Magma Location: Sydney,Australia. Posts: 333	The blame game, taking responsibility for your own actions, is a big step in your maturity as a person. He could have just had it out one on one with his main persecuter after school, that would have got him respect, self respect if nothing else. Blowing away helpless people is the act of a coward.

Oct 8, 2003, 10:54 am	#11 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	He just broke. He snapped like a twig. He was so bitter and filled with hate he couldn't think of anything else to do. He wanted to end it, but he wanted revenge first.

Oct 8, 2003, 11:17 pm	#12 (permalink) (top)
GreatWyrm of Babylon Avatar of Tiamut Location: Dallas, Texas (Irving) Posts: 848	You cannot change man to fit society, you must adapt society to fit man. Use the tool you have, do not pretend it is something else and blame it when it breaks.

Oct 9, 2003, 01:07 am	#15 (permalink) (top)
Section 8 Hot Lava Location: Spokane, WA Posts: 782	They didn't just wake up one morning and say "hey I feel like blowing the shit out of eleven people today." In order to prevent this from happening again one must find the root of the problem and eliminate it.

Oct 11, 2003, 12:45 am	#17 (permalink) (top)
Impenitent Hot Lava Posts: 1,859	8. the root of the problem was the FREEDOM they had to do the deed... do you really want to do away with freedom? good luck Geoff, 1. people can't be evil was sarcasm, they usually are evil 2. conspiracy laws are good but there must be direct concrete linkage... person x did thus and so... not blaming song lyrics... some verses in the bible are far worse 3. that was for the usual liberal whiners who want to blame society instead of the actual shooters "I really like this jacket, but the sleeves are much too long..." insanity is doing the same thing over and over again, but expecting different results...

Mar 29, 2006, 10:07 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
antonio Sedimentary Rock Posts: 2	To blame In this scenario I think the one to blame is both the kids and the people that surround the kids as well.People that are always around a teenager are the people that most im pact they have in them. If you are constantly around people that are making fun of you and telling you that you won't be able to make it, there is only so much that person can take. Then when they are about to explode or when they do explode for that matter, people dont take it as serious, becuase they think it is a joke. Thats enough for today I will speak my midn some more on this.

Mar 30, 2006, 12:32 am	#19 (permalink) (top)
Morgan_Freeman Illogic Hunter Location: Seattle Posts: 2,385	Blame the gun manufacturers!!!!! No, BLAME CANADA!!!! "A republic, if you can keep it." -- Benjamin Franklin Free State Project freestateproject.org

Mar 30, 2006, 01:00 am	#20 (permalink) (top)
phoenix_fire Paladin Location: Narnia Posts: 4,277	I don't want to detract from the blame that is due the shooters. I believe that everyone should be held responsible for his/her own actions and have to deal with whatever consequences ensue. On the other hand, however, I have had some experience with bullying. The fact of the matter is that schools really don't do a lot to curtail it. They usually turn a blind eye. Parents of bullies are even worse. They usually take a "not my perfect little angel" stance and try to say that the kid had a 2X4 to the head coming to them. Apparently, the kids that are bullied are "just not right" or are "instigators". Often parents will participate in gossipping about the "poor little freaks". Other children don't want to be friends with children who are bullied for the sake of their own social standing. It is horrible and it can break people in ways that usually aren't visible. The social structure in most high schools is sick and needs to be amended. Place me like a seal over your heart, like a seal on your arm; for love is as strong as death, its jealousy unyielding as the grave. It burns like blazing fire, like a mighty flame. -- Song 8:6