Separation of Church and State

[Jack]

I see nothing there that christian groups have been doing in schools since I was in high school in the early 70's. That's why I don't think schools should deal with any religion at all.

[shield772]

Quote by: Isherwood I see nothing there that christian groups have been doing in schools since I was in high school in the early 70's. That's why I don't think schools should deal with any religion at all.

I don't think schools should teach religion, but I don't think they should oppress it either, they should leave it alone, if kids want to have bibles, korans, and whatever other holy books other religions use with them leave them alone, as long as they are not disrupting the education of other kids

[Jack]

I'd agree if that could be practiced without bias.

[RickSp]

The problem is that there are those who claim that the majority of Muslims are terrorists and other nonsense. Comparative religion in schools as part of a civics or current events class is fine if it helps to counter that sort of uniformed bigotry.

[shield772]

Quote by: RickSp The problem is that there are those who claim that the majority of Muslims are terrorists and other nonsense. Comparative religion in schools as part of a civics or current events class is fine if it helps to counter that sort of uniformed bigotry.

I believe that if we taught comparative religion in schools we would have a generation that knows what each religion was supposed to be and then would see how the actual belivers of these religions act, I have never said Islam is a terroristic religion I said Muslims are, Christians have our share of hateful terrorists but at a much lesser percentage and ours seem to be all right here in the US, not causing problems for other nations.

[Jack]

we would have a generation that knows what each religion was supposed to be and then would see how the actual belivers of these religions act

If that helped them realize how foolish all religions are, I'd support the idea.

ours seem to be all right here in the US, not causing problems for other nations.

That makes them somehow better?

[RickSp]

Quote by: shield772 I believe that if we taught comparative religion in schools we would have a generation that knows what each religion was supposed to be and then would see how the actual belivers of these religions act, I have never said Islam is a terroristic religion I said Muslims are, Christians have our share of hateful terrorists but at a much lesser percentage and ours seem to be all right here in the US, not causing problems for other nations.

You have claimed, more than once, that a majority of Muslims are terrorists. I consider that to be a wildly uniformed and ultimately bigoted viewpoint. Even if you were referring to specific groups of Muslims in the Middle East, which would constitute a small percentage of Muslims as a whole, that doesn't change the obvious absurdity of the statement.

[grandpa]

Quote by: shield772 What is your point, God has placed the man as the head of the family, man was first woman was created from man to be a help maid, in our modern society woman can vote they can serve in the military they hold high elected offices they run corporations and in some countries they run them. In christianity the woman is subject to the man, ok you got us on that one.

God is made by man, not the other way around.
Modern society is making religion irrelevant, yet many still cling to superstition.
Most realize that women are more than servants with holes to ejaculate into.

Grandpa h.

Quote by: RickSp You have claimed, more than once, that a majority of Muslims are terrorists. I consider that to be a wildly uniformed and ultimately bigoted viewpoint.

If a majority of Muslims were terrorists the world would have a lot more destruction in it now. That's not to say it won't be a possible development in the next few years, given our own detsructive policies.

Grandpa h.

[Joe23649]

Is the USA a Christian nation?
Yes

Was it intended to be?
Yes

Should it be?
Yes

Should “God” be mentioned in the pledge of allegiance?
Yes

Should “God” be printed on US currency?
Yes

Is separation of church and state being practiced to an acceptable degree?
There shouldn't be any separation of church and state.

Do you agree with separation of church and state?
No. I believe church and state should be completely integrated so that all may know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Should the “Intelligent Design” theory be taught in public schools along side evolution?
I believe only Bible-based beliefs should be taught in the public schools and atheistic scientific beliefs should be banned.
__________________

[Chris]

Are you for real?

Why not move to Iran there buddy?

[Osborn F Enready]

Joe said: No. I believe church and state should be completely integrated so that all may know Jesus Christ as Lord and Savior.

Yee ha, warm up the rope, we gonna stone us some non-believers papa!

People like this guy are a threat to humanity. (jesus, allah, rah or whomever is your fanatical leader)

[Chancellor]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer Is the USA a Christian nation?

No.

Was it intended to be?

No, though some of the colonies were.

Should it be?

No.

Should “God” be mentioned in the pledge of allegiance?

No, it suggests that America acknowledges God's sovereignty over the nation and, thus, establishes a national religion.

Should “God” be printed on US currency?

No. See above.

Is separation of church and state being practiced to an acceptable degree? Do you agree with separation of church and state?

There is no such thing as "separation of church and state" anywhere in the Constitution. What is prohibited is 1) the establishment of a national religion and 2) infringing on the free exercise of religion.

Should the “Intelligent Design” theory be taught in public schools along side evolution?

Neither one should be taught in public schools. Until science can actually replicate the big bang or whatever other evolutionary theories of ORIGINS (which is what this is really about) being espoused, all theories of origins must be relegated to the realms of religion and philosophy.

[Gods_Mercenary]

The Seperation of Church and state is not a seperation of Religion and state. Church implies the governmental structure of the old world churches. The founding fathers were looking to stop the meddling of the Church heirarchy in Government and vise versa. If they wanted to remove all traces of religion from Government do you think they would have opened their meetings with a prayer?


The US is not a Christian Nation. Many of the founding fathers were deists. None of them said anything about Jesus or even a specifically Abrahamic God in the Constitution.

[Joe23649]

It's only a matter of time until God's people take their rightful place as rulers of the world. Once the world is readied for Christ's return, then He will come in all of His majesty and glory. Then all the God haters will finally be judged, and those who have defied God's will - will reap what they have sown.

[The Bacon Guy]

You crack me up, man.

[another day]

Quote by: Joe23649 It's only a matter of time until God's people take their rightful place as rulers of the world. Once the world is readied for Christ's return, then He will come in all of His majesty and glory. Then all the God haters will finally be judged, and those who have defied God's will - will reap what they have sown.

"God's people" have already taken their place as ruler of the world. Infact "God's people" (whomever that may be at the time) have been ruling this world for ever.

[gallo]

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The Seperation of Church and state is not a seperation of Religion and state. Church implies the governmental structure of the old world churches. The founding fathers were looking to stop the meddling of the Church heirarchy in Government and vise versa. If they wanted to remove all traces of religion from Government do you think they would have opened their meetings with a prayer?

Good point. Maybe that is why the Constitutional Convention didn't open a single session with a prayer. Well into the convention, Ben Franklin moved that sessions be opened with a prayer. There was a bit of discussion and then the session was adjourned. The question of prayer was never mentioned again, and thus not one meeting of the founding of our government began with a prayer. Even at that, Franklin's motion didn't propose a prayer to either Jesus or God. Franklin thought that the delegates should implore the assistance of "Heaven." Doesn't sound very Christian, but it sure rings of deism.

I hope that Gods_Mercenary understands that the Constitutional Convention was the founding of our nation and the participants were the founding fathers.

But still, it's funny that Gods_Mercenary wants to quibble about whether the Constitution establishes a separation between church and state, or religion and state. Since the 1st Amendment doesn't mention church, and specifically says religion, I would think it is the latter.

Quote by: Gods_Mercenary The US is not a Christian Nation. Many of the founding fathers were deists. None of them said anything about Jesus or even a specifically Abrahamic God in the Constitution.

True. Fundamentalist Christians are always amazed when the find out how many times God and Jesus are mentioned in the Constitution. Exactly zero times in both cases. Besides the 1st Amendment religious freedom clauses, the only other mention of religion is in Article VI that forbids a religious test as a condition of office under the Constitution.

There were Christians among the framers of the Constitution, most certainly. However, many of them refused to sign the document specifically because it failed to recognize Christianity. They returned home and then opposed the ratification of the Constitution on the grounds that it was a "Godless document." Much of the opposition to ratification came from the the pulpits of the established churches. In Virginia, Patrick Henry opposed ratification for the same reason, the Constitution was godless.

[gallo]

This seems like a good place to post my...

Christian Nation Quiz - Part I

It seems to me that if the founding fathers of this country were very bright, and I think that they were, then their intentions to form a "Christian Nation" would be clearly evident in our founding documents. I mean, aside from their private writings where no indication of such intent can be found, wouldn’t such intent be clear in the very documents that declared and established this country?

To that end, I have examined some of the early documents, written by these founding fathers, upon which this nation was founded. First, there is the Declaration of Independence. While the view of the founding fathers was that the Declaration did not found a new nation, but rather returned the power to govern to the source, i.e., the people, this document is often cited as evidence of a “Christian Nation” by advocates of a repressive theocracy. The Declaration of Independence left the 13 Colonies without a legislative body and without law. As the founding fathers expressed at the time, the people were returned to the state of nature.

Second, I have examined the eleven constitutions, written concurrently with or immediately after the Declaration in 1776 and 1777, which reestablished governments in ten of the newly independent states, and also established the independent Republic of New Connecticut (now known as Vermont) from the disputed territories that were claimed by Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and New York. Three colonies (Massachusetts, Rhode Island, and Connecticut) didn’t draft and adopt constitutions until later and instead reverted to a previous charter.

Third, I examined the Articles of Confederation, the initial founding document of The United States of America, The Constitution itself, and the Bill of Rights.

So here are some questions about these documents. Keep in mind that the intent of the founding fathers to form a “Christian Nation” should be quite clear in these documents, if that were their intent.

The answers are in the paragraphs following each question. No cheating by reading ahead.

1. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions Jesus Christ how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

Of course, everyone knows the answer. This initial document of the United States mentions Jesus exactly zero times. A bit peculiar upon the founding of a “Christian Nation,” don’t you think?

2. The Declaration shows the intention to form a “Christian Nation” in that it mentions God how many times? a. zero, b. one, c. three, d. five.

I’m sure you all got this right too. God is mentioned one time. Sadly for the “Christian Nation” crowd, “Nature and Nature’s God” is an expression typical of deism, written by Thomas Jefferson, an undisputed deist. The deity was typically mentioned as the “Creator,” or “Divine Providence” (also in the Declaration). The idea was the nature was established by the deity who then had no further part in the course of events – thus, “Nature’s God.”

3. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is Jesus mentioned?. a. zero, b. one, c. five, d. eleven.

A hint. It’s more than zero. It’s true. Even at the state level, in founding Christian governments, the drafters of the state constitutions failed to mention Jesus Christ more than a single time, specified in the oath taken by the legislators in a single state, Delaware. While it may not have been a Christian Nation, at least in Delaware only Christians and liars could be members of the legislature.

4. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is the word “Christian” used? a. zero, b. three, c. six, d. nine

Bet you thought you had this one too. The correct answer is six times in three of the 11 constitutions. But that isn’t necessarily a good thing for the “Christian Nation” advocates. Let’s consider New York first. Article XXXV of the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 states in part, “That all such parts of…common law, and…statutes and acts…as may be construed to establish or maintain any particular denomination of Christians or their ministers, …are repugnant to this constitution,…and they hereby are, abrogated and rejected.”

The Constitution of Virginia of June 1776 states in Sec 16 of the Bill of Rights, “That religion, or the duty which we owe to our Creator…can be directed only by reason and conviction…and therefore all men are equally entitled to the free exercise of religion, according to the dictates of conscience; and that it is the mutual duty of all to practice Christian forbearance, love, and charity towards each other.” That isn’t really establishing a “Christian” government but an encouragement to the people to respect the right of each person to practice religion as he sees fit.

Finally, there is the Maryland Constitution of November, 1776. Christianity is mentioned twice in Article XXXIII where it states that every man has the right and duty to worship God any such a manner as seems most acceptable to him. It mentions Christians when it specifically extends the same right to those “professing the Christian religion.” In that same article, the legislature is authorized to levy taxes for the support of religion. However, control of where that money is to be spent is retained by the citizen rather than being given to the established state religion. Further on, in Articles XXXV and again in Article LV, a belief in the “Christian Religion,” along with requirements to reject the sovereignty of the King and to swear allegiance to the state, is specified as a requirement to hold elective or appointive office. It also states that no further religious test is required. It is interesting to note that the Supreme Court found a similar provision in the Maryland Constitution unconstitutional when a man appointed as a notary public was denied that commission by a court clerk because he refused to declare his belief in God. (Torcaso v. Watkins, 367 U.S. 488 (1961))

At any rate, here in the Constitution of Maryland we do find intent to form a “Christian Nation.” However, I don’t think that two of the 13 states that we have found so far are enough to ascribe that view to the founding fathers from all states.

5. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to the “Creator?” a. zero, b. four, c. eight, d. twelve

Did you take a lucky guess and say eight? Then you are wrong because it is four. In the Constitution of New York of April, 1777 the Declaration of Independence is quoted, all of it. Thus, just as the Declaration contains one reference to the Creator, so does the Constitution of New York.

In the Constitution of Pennsylvania of September, 1776, the form of the oath to be taken by members of the state assembly contains the word “Creator.” “I do believe in one God, the creator and governor of the universe, the rewarder of the good and the punisher of the wicked. And I do acknowledge the Scriptures of the Old and New Testament to be given by Divine inspiration.” It goes on state that there should be no further religious test. Here was the perfect place to specify a “Christian Nation” (or at least a Christian State) and it misses the mark. It doesn’t require a belief in Christianity and thus, even deists could be members of the state assembly. Thus, Benjamin Franklin was not only a member, but the President of the Executive Council.

Since the Constitution of Vermont of July, 1777 was an almost verbatim copy of the Constitution of Pennsylvania, it contains one reference to a “Creator” in the oath sworn by members of the state legislature.

The single mention of a “Creator” in the Constitution of Virginia has already been mentioned in question 4. Remember that it was in reference to the duty to practice religion and that every man is free to do so as he sees fit.

Also remember that use of “Creator” for the deity was typical of deists, and apparently acceptable for Christians.

[gallo]

Christian Nation Quiz - Part II

6. How many times in the 11 state constitutions of 1776 & 1777 is there a reference to “God?” a. zero, b. eight, c. eighteen, d. twenty-eight.

Of course, the mention of God is not an indication that one is a Christian. Such a claim would be silly in the extreme. However, the 11 state constitutions mention God a total of twenty eight times. Delaware = 2 – both times in the profession of faith for legislators. Georgia = 4 – in all cases as “so help me God” in the form of the oaths for various offices. Maryland = 1 – in the previously mentioned (in question 4) statement of freedom of religion from Article XXXIII. New Jersey = 1 – in a rather forceful statement of religious freedom in Article XVIII. New York = 2 – the first being the previously mentioned quote of the entire Declaration of Independence and the second being in Article XXXIX, where it prohibits ministers of religion from holding any state office. Peculiar if the intent was to establish a “Christian Nation.” North Carolina = 2 – once in a weak statement of religious freedom, and once in Article XXXII, where denial of God or the Protestant faith prohibits service in any state office. (So that makes 3 “Christian Nations.”) Pennsylvania = 3 – twice in Article II, a forceful statement of religious freedom, and once in Sect. 10, in the oath taken by legislators. South Carolina = 1 – in the oath taken by legislators. Vermont = 12 – 9 are in the form of various oaths, and 3 are in the statement of religious freedom.

7. In how many of the 13 original states plus the Republic of Vermont were members of the clergy allowed to sit in the legislature? a. fourteen, b. nine, c. five, d. three.

I presume that the answer is five, since nine states expressly forbade members of the clergy from being elected to the legislature. Some were more strict than others and prohibited clergy members from holding any office in government or commission in the militia. The states were Maryland, Virginia, Delaware, Pennsylvania, North Carolina, Georgia, New York, South Carolina, and New Hampshire.

8. How many total times did the Articles of Confederation mention God, Jesus, Christian, Creator, or religion? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven

You’re getting the hang of this by now, aren’t you? Yes, it’s true. The initial founding document of the United States of America, the Articles of Confederation, contained references to any of the above zero times. Wouldn’t it be more logical that if it were the intent of the men who wrote the Articles of Confederation to establish a “Christian Nation” there would be some mention of Jesus, God, or religion?

9. How many times does the Constitution of the United States mention God, Jesus, Creator, or Christian? a. zero, b. three, c. five, d. seven.

I’m sure you got this one right too. Again, the answer is zero times. It’s a peculiar state of affairs for a document that is purported to establish a “Christian Nation.”

10. How many times does the Constitution of the United States make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

I know that it seems strange for a “Christian Nation,” but the answer is once, in 3. of Article VI. “but no religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

11. How many times does the Bill of Rights mention God, Jesus, Creator, Christian, or make any reference to religion? a. zero, b. one, c. two, d. three.

You all got this one too, right? The answer is, of course, one time in the First Amendment. “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” Again, strange if the purpose was the establishment of a “Christian Nation.”

12. How many of the 13 original colonies had an established religion at one time or another in their history? a. thirteen, b. twelve, c. eight, d. five.

Every one of them with the exception of Rhode Island. One of the final works of James Madison before he left for the Continental Convention of 1787 was to defeat a bill that would have paid “teachers of Christian religion” from taxes, and then to reintroduce Jefferson’s religious freedom bill that essentially disestablished the Anglican church in Virginia. The last state to have an established church was the Congregational church of Massachusetts. There is a letter from Thomas Jefferson to John Adams congratulating Adams on the occasion.

13. “Christian Nation” advocates claim that they are correct because most of the people of the 13 colonies were Christians. In reality, according to historians, what percentage of the people actually attended any church at around the time of the Revolution? a. 75-90%, b. 50-75%, c. 20-50%, d. 5-20%.

Did you guess d? Right. For example, Lynn R. Buzzard, executive director of the Christian Legal Society states that not only were a good many of the revolutionary leaders deists, but that perhaps as little as 5% of the populace were church members. Other sources (I have 5 more) place the number as low as 4% up to 10-15%.

14. True or false. The Constitution of the United States does not mention the separation of church and state.

A big talking point with the “Christian Nation” crowd, it is true. But our Constitution is based on the principle that any power not granted to the federal government by the Constitution is reserved to the people and the states. Thus, since no religious powers are granted, the federal government has no right to legislate in religious matters. At least this is what was argued at the time of the ratification of the Constitution. Nevertheless, the First Amendment formalized the restriction on the Congress. It was actually Thomas Jefferson who stated that the purpose of the First Amendment was to erect a “wall of separation” between church and state.

And isn’t it funny that “Christian Nation” advocates think that it is meaningful that the separation of church and state isn’t specifically mentioned, and yet have no problem with the fact that God, Jesus, and Christian Nation aren’t mentioned either?

15. How many of the first 7 Presidents of the United States were Christians? a. zero, b. two, c. four, d. six.

According to the Reverend Bird Wilson, an Episcopal minister in Albany, “among all our presidents from Washington downward, not one was a professor of religion.” Rev. Wilson, in the same sermon in 1831 asserted that the founders of our nation were nearly all Infidels, and that of the presidents who had to that time been elected, not a one had professed a belief in Christianity. Those Presidents were Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q. Adams, and Jackson.
It seems to me that if it was the intention to found a “Christian Nation” that their intent would be quite clear. The founding fathers of at least three states had no problem in making their intentions known. To participate in those governments a citizen had to be a Christian. In others, it seems that deism would also have been acceptable. But in our “Christian Nation” matters of religion are dealt with only in the form of restrictions on the part of the government to interfere with the free practice of any religion. To me the intent to form a secular nation is quite clear.

[gallo]

Let us know how you did on the test. I would have reported my performance as dismal before I researched this. I know, it's a guessing game about minutia. But shouldn't we understand some of this?