User Tag List

Page 5 of 14 FirstFirst 123456789 ... LastLast
Results 49 to 60 of 160

Thread: Separation of Church and State

  1. #49
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,934
    Threads
    2222
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    298
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I only know what I read in biographies. Some were, some weren't, and none of them advocated making this a christian nation.
    Who does not see that the same authority which can establish Christianity in exclusion of all other religions may establish, with the same ease, any particular sect of Christians in exclusion of all other sects? That the same authority which can force a citizen to contribute threepence only of his property for the support of any one establishment may force him to conform to any other establishment in all cases whatsoever?

    James Madison, A Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments, June 20, 1785.




    The Forum Rules

    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
    [John F. Kennedy]
    The principal value of debate lies in the development of logical thought processes, and the ability to articulate your positions publicly.
    [Senator Dick Clark of Iowa]
    The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
    [Terry Pratchett]

  2. #50
    Lullaby Chainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,020
    Threads
    206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: shield772 View Post
    I know quite a bit about government, I also know that your one of those people that want to interpret the 1st amendment to mean all government when it only specifically addresses the powers of congress, it does not place any restrictions on states, it can't because states have the right to govern themselves I see this as I do many other issues as an attack on individual states rights, so don't be condecending it only shows your ignorance, disagreement with you does not show ignorance. This is one of my big problems with liberals, when someone disagrees with you demean and insult them, it's childish. :rolleyes:
    -sigh- I guess I'm going to have to be a teacher as well.

    Quote Quote by: About.com
    Myth:
    The First Amendment only prohibits an “establishment” a national church.

    Response:
    This myth relies on one of two misunderstandings. The first is that the First Amendment guarantee of religious liberty is only about preventing the government from setting up some particular church to which all must belong. The second is that the First Amendment does not prohibit “multiple establishments” — showing equal preference for many different religions or denominations.

    The first misunderstanding is the easiest to clear up. If the First Amendment only prevents the federal government from setting up its own church, then the First Amendment does not guarantee religious liberty. Why? The words “religious liberty” and “religious freedom” certainly do not appear:

    “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof...”
    If the “no establishment only” interpretation were accurate, then the federal government could enforce compliance with the rules or dogmas of particular religions and, so long as it created no national church and allowed people to follow their own, separate religious rules, this would not be unconstitutional.

    Does anyone think it would be permissible for the government to force all men to wear yarmulkes, or to prohibit women from wearing jewelry?
    This is the misunderstanding which lies behind the myth that “freedom of religion” is distinct from “freedom from religion.” In reality, the former requires the latter, which means that the government is not just prevented from creating a single national church. It is, instead, prevented from enforcing anyone’s religious rules.

    Some argue that “establishment” only refers to setting up a national church and thus does not mean that the government cannot actively support some church or religion. How many really believe, though, that it would be permissible for the government to help fund the Catholic Church or the Jehovah’s Witnesses while all other religious groups have to survive on their own?

    The second misunderstanding has become popular in some conservative circles in recent years and is often known as “accommodationism” or “non-preferentialism.” According to this view, the federal government may “accommodate” religion by supporting religion, but only so long as it does so without “preference” — that is to say, so long as all religions which ask for assistance are treated equally. The premise behind this is that the First Amendment prohibits an establishment of religion, but not many establishments of religion. Unfortunately, the arguments offered by supporters fail, and on two accounts.

    The first is that it fails even based upon their own understanding of the law, known sometimes as “originalism.” According to this view, the Constitution means what the authors meant it to mean — nothing more and nothing less. Thus, if “no law respecting an establishment of religion” was intended only to refer to setting up a national church, then that is all it means. Anything else is permitted, even if that would otherwise infringe upon abstract notions of religious liberty.

    The problem with this is that there is ample evidence that the authors of the Constitution did not intend merely to prohibit the creation of a single, national church. James Madison, who is responsible for much of the Constitution, wrote his “Memorial and Remonstrance” specifically denouncing multiple establishments in his native Virginia.

    Moreover, the House of Representatives and the Senate considered different versions of the First Amendment which would have allowed for non-preferential support of religion. None were passed and the debate record shows that they did not support nonpreferentialist support of religion. Records of the debate on ratification from Virginia also show that those legislators did not support nonpreferentialism.

    It is true that the delegates to the Constitutional Convention wanted to prevent the creation of a national church. Established churches and intolerance towards minority religious beliefs had been common in the colonies, but when the Constitution went into effect only Massachusetts, Connecticut, New Hampshire, and Maryland still had established churches.

    Most delegates believed that everyone needed to have freedom of conscience. This meant that everyone needed to be able to choose their own religious path without interference from the government. The state should not tell people what to believe, how to believe, or how to practice. This philosophical background is why it is a mistake to believe that a “national church” was their only concern.
    Question: Are you in favor of a theocracy? Do you respect your fellow citizens that do not share your beliefs?

    Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..

  3. #51
    Lullaby Chainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,020
    Threads
    206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Right of Center View Post
    Well Dear I'm sorry you read that wrong. I was talking about state constitution, not national. You know Massachusets, Rhode Island, New York, North Carolina, etc. These constitutions, at least in original form, made references to God and to God's law. Technically speaking Christian Pilgrims came to America and founded the first successful settlement. Followed by more Christian Europeans. The government America stands on is morally Christian. Christian values set what our ethos is. We as individuals have our own ethics which we abide by, but the overall christian ethos determines our individual sense of morality. Every single one of the representatives that wrote the Constitution believed in God. They believed in Christian values.
    No, they didn't believe in God. They were Deists, dear. Please cite your sources, thanks!

    Quote Quote by: Right of Center
    It is wholly appropriate to assume that they wrote laws that accorded with Christian ideas and did not have laws that went against Christian ethos. America was founded Christian. Much as Israel was founded Jew, India founded Hindu, and Saudi Arabia founded muslim. You might not like the fact that America is drowned in Judeo-Christian ideals, you might not even realize that the way you live your life has Judeo-Christian tradition, however you cannot dismiss the fact that Christianity has had a profound impact on America. American culture was founded on ideals of God and Christianity, and taking God off our officials seals, currency, and pledge cheapens American values. Think of it this way, if you do not believe in God, then just think of it as a symbol of America's cultural foundation, theological background, and a just representation of America's modern culture, ethos, laws, philosophy, ideas, and beliefs.

    Your quote from the founding fathers does not mean that they were carefully excluding all ideals and moralities that matched Christian epoch. They grew up Christian and had a very much Christian mind. Rather I think they were worried that representatives would want an entire nation Christian, with Christianity being the only acceptable religion. That is why they state seperation of church and state. However, you cannot deny that Christian values and ideals has determined what our laws are and what the founding fathers put in our constitution.
    History contradicts you. Please site your sources.

    Please attempt to respond to my post. Repeating yourself is not only annoying, it's degrading to yourself. We're in a debate, dear. Repetition won't get you anywhere.

    Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..

  4. #52
    Resigned Matt W's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Location
    Reading, UK.
    Posts
    8,129
    Threads
    1296
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Enough of the condescension, Lullaby. Cut the 'dear'. :rolleyes:

    [do not respond]

    I spent a lot of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I just squandered.

    -George Best, on being asked what he did with his footballing fortunes.

  5. #53
    110 Dead LEO's in 08 shield772's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Washington, WV
    Posts
    1,757
    Threads
    44
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Lullaby Chainer View Post
    -sigh- I guess I'm going to have to be a teacher as well.



    Question: Are you in favor of a theocracy? Do you respect your fellow citizens that do not share your beliefs?
    The first amendment prohibits congress from passing any law concerning religion, period, all encompassing, so yes when they put in god we trust on the money and under god in the pledge it was unconstitutional, but the federal congress does not run my local schools, they have no authority over them so the first amendment does not apply to what is taught in schools. only the states have power over that. so you have taught just as they do in public schools your interpretation of the 1st amendment and this must stop, the founders put what they meant, that was the scope of the amendment and using to prohibit anything but congress is unconstitutional.


  6. #54
    Lullaby Chainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,020
    Threads
    206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: shield772 View Post
    The first amendment prohibits congress from passing any law concerning religion, period, all encompassing, so yes when they put in god we trust on the money and under god in the pledge it was unconstitutional, but the federal congress does not run my local schools, they have no authority over them so the first amendment does not apply to what is taught in schools. only the states have power over that. so you have taught just as they do in public schools your interpretation of the 1st amendment and this must stop, the founders put what they meant, that was the scope of the amendment and using to prohibit anything but congress is unconstitutional.
    Shield! How many times do I have to tell you? If you're going to debate, you have to respond to your fellow debater. Repeating yourself over and over isn't going to help.

    Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..

  7. #55
    110 Dead LEO's in 08 shield772's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Washington, WV
    Posts
    1,757
    Threads
    44
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    because you are distorting my arguement, I am not saying we should live in a theocracy, I am saying that congress has no authority over my state and county schools. You people are the ones putting meaning into the 1st amendment that is not there, not me.


  8. #56
    Lullaby Chainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,020
    Threads
    206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: shield772 View Post
    because you are distorting my arguement, I am not saying we should live in a theocracy, I am saying that congress has no authority over my state and county schools. You people are the ones putting meaning into the 1st amendment that is not there, not me.
    Not the question Shield!

    The other 90% of my post.

    Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..

  9. #57
    110 Dead LEO's in 08 shield772's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Washington, WV
    Posts
    1,757
    Threads
    44
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: Lullaby Chainer View Post
    Not the question Shield!

    The other 90% of my post.
    I do not fall into any of the categories you listed, I believe words have meaning and what they wrote is what they meant, that is all nothing more.


  10. #58
    Sapere Aude Jack's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Virginia
    Posts
    26,934
    Threads
    2222
    Post Thanks / Like
    Blog Entries
    298
    Mentioned
    20 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Then you should read what we said. We asked a question, we didn't make an assumption. We asked if you supported a theocracy and if you respected freedom of, and from, religion. We're inquiring into your position on those topics.



    The Forum Rules

    Too often we enjoy the comfort of opinion without the discomfort of thought.
    [John F. Kennedy]
    The principal value of debate lies in the development of logical thought processes, and the ability to articulate your positions publicly.
    [Senator Dick Clark of Iowa]
    The presence of those seeking the truth is infinitely to be preferred to the presence of those who think they've found it.
    [Terry Pratchett]

  11. #59
    110 Dead LEO's in 08 shield772's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Washington, WV
    Posts
    1,757
    Threads
    44
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    I do not support a theocracy, I am completely for freedom of religion and from it if that is what you wish, I do not support the persecution of anyone for their belifs for or against and beliefs or non-beliefs, I thought my position on these matters was well known, I am a christian but i am not a thumper, if i am asked i will talk to someone about God and Jesus but i do not force my religion on others, ever.


  12. #60
    Lullaby Chainer's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Posts
    3,020
    Threads
    206
    Post Thanks / Like
    Mentioned
    0 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)
    Quote Quote by: shield772 View Post
    I do not support a theocracy, I am completely for freedom of religion and from it if that is what you wish, I do not support the persecution of anyone for their belifs for or against and beliefs or non-beliefs, I thought my position on these matters was well known, I am a christian but i am not a thumper, if i am asked i will talk to someone about God and Jesus but i do not force my religion on others, ever.
    Then, if you insist that Creationism is taught in science class, you must allow all religions to be taught in science class.

    This is, of course, if you ignore what science is. But if you must have your way, you must also let all other religions have their way into the science class.

    Powerful.. magical.. e-e-e-eevil..

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •