Separation of Church and State

[belverron]

Quote by: shield772 Correct, I agree but I have found it increasingly difficult to get them to understand the difference between old and new testament/old and new covenant

If Christianity didn't want to accept the Old Testament, why is it built upon it?

[shield772]

Quote by: belverron If Christianity didn't want to accept the Old Testament, why is it built upon it?

Christianity is not, it is built upon the teachings of christ, but we have the old testament as history and so you can understand that christ is the son of god as was betold by many in jewish history, remember christianity is a sect of judeism.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: tivodan That's Old Testament. Perhaps I misspoke... Such sentiments may be contained in or even peripherally accepted in the Bible, but in the Christian religion, that is, following the teachings of Jesus, they are not.

Not according to Jesus.

"Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished". -- Matthew 5:17-18

Besides, the New Testament has it's own opinions on slavery...

“Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward" -- 1 Peter 2:18

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." -- 1 Timothy 6:1-2

"Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven." -- 1 Tim 6:1

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." -- 2 Cor. 4:5

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[tivodan1116]

Quote by: Sonart . Not according to Jesus. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke or a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law (the Old Testament) until everything is accomplished". -- Matthew 5:17-18

What Jesus is referring to are the prophesies of the Old Testament. This verse in the Bible is one of many instances where Jesus alludes to being the savior that was predicted by the prophets of the Old Testament.

Furthermore, if you read the chapter fully, instead of taking the verse out of context (a common Christian-hater's mistake),you'll see that indeed, Jesus DOES change some of the Old Testament "laws" - for example, he changes "an eye for an eye" to "turn the other cheek".

Besides, the New Testament has it's own opinions on slavery... “Servants, be subject to your masters with all fear; not only to the good and gentle, but also to the forward" -- 1 Peter 2:18

Again, taken out of context. The writer of the letter (and might I add not Jesus) in this chapter is telling people that while you should follow Jesus, you also must follow the laws of your land and be a good citizen. The laws of the land at the time included legal slavery.

"Christians who are slaves should give their masters full respect so that the name of God and his teaching will not be shamed. If your master is a Christian, that is no excuse for being disrespectful. You should work all the harder because you are helping another believer by your efforts. Teach these truths, Timothy, and encourage everyone to obey them." -- 1 Timothy 6:1-2

Again, the writer is saying to follow the laws of the land. The writer is saying that a good Christian should accept their situation peacefully. In fact, the writer is implying that slavery is wrong by saying that even though Christians who own slaves are wrong, they should be followed by their slaves in the rule of Christians helping other people above all else.

"Masters, grant to your slaves justice and fairness, knowing that you too have a Master in heaven." -- 1 Tim 6:1

I don't see how this either condones or condemns slavery. It is neutral.

"For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit." -- 2 Cor. 4:5.

Merely acknowledging slavery exists does not condone it. In fact, this verse goes against slavery, since it says that slaves are just as valuable as free people in the eyes of God.

Hey, good try though. Keep going to whatever website you are and searching the Bible text for the word "slave"... Eventually you'll be able to take something out of context enough that it might satisfy you... :rolleyes:

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: tivodan1116 What Jesus is referring to are the prophesies of the Old Testament. This verse in the Bible is one of many instances where Jesus alludes to being the savior that was predicted by the prophets of the Old Testament.

But.. he said. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets"

Law.. or the Prophets.

LAW.. or the Prophets.

I'm having difficulties following your reasoning behind concluding that he was only talking about prophesies.

Give me more examples of these laws you say he changed.

[shield772]

Quote by: Lullaby Chainer But.. he said. "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law (the Old Testament) or the Prophets" Law.. or the Prophets. LAW.. or the Prophets. I'm having difficulties following your reasoning behind concluding that he was only talking about prophesies. Give me more examples of these laws you say he changed.

Because they were accusing him of attempting to abolish the laws of moses.

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shield772 Because they were accusing him of attempting to abolish the laws of moses.

And? What is this responding to?

[shield772]

He said that to tell them that was not his purpose but to fulfill prophesy and to complete the law

[Lullaby Chainer]

Quote by: shield772 He said that to tell them that was not his purpose but to fulfill prophesy and to complete the law

His purpose was not to abolish the laws. Ok.

What laws did he complete?

[Sonart]

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Quote by: tivodan What Jesus is referring to are the prophesies of the Old Testament.

Says who... you? Here's Matthew 5. He clearly speaks of 'The Law' and 'The Prophets'. Nothing about prophecies.

He also addresses divorce...

31 "It was also said, 'Whoever divorces his wife must give her a bill of divorce.'
32 "But I say to you, whoever divorces his wife (unless the marriage is unlawful) causes her to commit adultery, and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

That's interesting. Another 'Traditional Moral Value' that's evolved with time?

Quote by: tivodan Again, taken out of context. The writer of the letter (and might I add not Jesus) in this chapter is telling people that while you should follow Jesus, you also must follow the laws of your land and be a good citizen. The laws of the land at the time included legal slavery.

How about that. The 'Traditional Moral Values' of the time, right? And since the Bible didn't oppose those values, it condoned them as acceptable.

As to "and I might add, not Jesus", care to point out what parts of the Bible were written by Jesus? Are you now suggesting that anything not written by Jesus is potentially subject to error?

Quote by: tivodan Again, the writer is saying to follow the laws of the land.

And therefore condones them. Is not the Bible, regardless of the author, the inspired Word of God? Are there passages in the Bible that declares slavery to be legal but wrong?

Quote by: tivodan I don't see how this (1 Tim 6:1) either condones or condemns slavery. It is neutral.

You don't??? It presumes that owning slaves is fine, just so long as you are kind to them.

Quote by: tivodan Merely acknowledging slavery exists does not condone it. In fact, this verse goes against slavery, since it says that slaves are just as valuable as free people in the eyes of God.

con-done v 1. to disregard or overlook (something illegal, objectionable, or the like).

They completely disregarded slavery as objectionable, although it wasn't objectionable at the time... except to the slaves. Saying that people, slave or free, were equal in the eyes of God never seemed to translate into slavery being wrong. It simply said that, as the church has been telling bonded peasants thoughout its history, "Accept your lot in life because, if you believe, you'll be rewarded when you die, so back to work everyone."

Quote by: tivodan Hey, good try though. Keep going to whatever website you are and searching the Bible text for the word "slave"... Eventually you'll be able to take something out of context enough that it might satisfy you...

As you have repeatedly pointed out, slavery was the traditional moral value of the time... the law of the land. More than that, slavery was a vital part of the economies and civilizations of the time, as much a part of life as a television is today. Recall that American slave-holders, prior to the Civil War, used the Bible liberally as justification for their peculiar institution.

The fact is, prior to a few hundred years ago, slavery was a perfectly acceptable institution, particularly slaves from 'pagan' regions. The Law - the Old Testament - spelled out quite clearly how non-Hebrew (which Jesus was) slaves should be treated differently than Hebrew slaves.

Well, that 'Traditional Moral Value' has changed dramatically with the onset of the modern world. Yet here you are trying to reconcile the values of today with what was a perfectly acceptable traditional value 2,000 years ago by saying that I somehow misunderstand it.

We both understand it quite clearly, tivodan. Your problem is trying to reconcile a moral value of today, which has evolved, with the moral values of another time, but which are supposed to be eternal and unimpeachable. Quite a challenge, as we can read in every "defending the Bible" website, with folks bending over backwards trying to explain how we "misinterpret" or "take out of context" things which you've already conceded were the accepted - and unquestioned - law of the land.

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[RickSp]

Why is it that Christians here and elsewhere can disavow the Old Testament then turn around and fight to have the Ten Commandments on display hither and yon? How can you renounce part of the Mosaic code while memorializing the bit that you like? Doesn't make sense to me.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: Shield Because they were accusing him of attempting to abolish the laws of moses.

Quote by: Lullaby And? What is this responding to?

Quote by: Shield He said that to tell them that was not his purpose but to fulfill prophesy and to complete the law

I don't think so.

Then he said, "You reject God's laws in order to hold on to your own traditions. 10 For instance, Moses gave you this law from God: 'Honor your father and mother,' and 'Anyone who speaks evil of father or mother must be put to death.' 11 But you say it is all right for people to say to their parents, 'Sorry, I can't help you. For I have vowed to give to God what I could have given to you.' 12 You let them disregard their needy parents. 13 As such, you break the law of God in order to protect your own tradition. And this is only one example. There are many, many others." -- Mark 7:9

Of course, the entire chapter is simply Jesus trying to rationalize why he had broken the Hebrew law about washing his hands before eating... something every child is still admonished to do to this day.

Quote by: RickSp Why is it that Christians here and elsewhere can disavow the Old Testament then turn around and fight to have the Ten Commandments on display hither and yon?

Indeed... posting it right up next to their graven image of Christ on the Cross.


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[grandpa]

I found it.

1 Corinthians 14
14:34
"Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law."

Care to address this one? It wans't just my aksing a bullshit question. I remembered there was such a passage, and sure enough there is. And this is in the New Testament.

Grandpa h.

[Aeris]

Quote by: RickSp Why is it that Christians here and elsewhere can disavow the Old Testament then turn around and fight to have the Ten Commandments on display hither and yon? How can you renounce part of the Mosaic code while memorializing the bit that you like? Doesn't make sense to me.

That's actually something I don't understand either. In the new testaments, there appear to be only two rules "Love your God as the one true God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Furthermore, in arguements about say the morality of homosexuality or capital punishment, Christians can draw verses from both testaments, but when issues like slavery or cruelty towards women and children are brought up suddenly the verses in the New Testament don't count.

[shield772]

Quote by: RickSp Why is it that Christians here and elsewhere can disavow the Old Testament then turn around and fight to have the Ten Commandments on display hither and yon? How can you renounce part of the Mosaic code while memorializing the bit that you like? Doesn't make sense to me.

Because the ten comandments happen to be the basis for western civilizations rules of law, it's history. Like every other monument we put up.

Quote by: grandpa I found it. 1 Corinthians 14 14:34 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law." Care to address this one? It wans't just my aksing a bullshit question. I remembered there was such a passage, and sure enough there is. And this is in the New Testament. Grandpa h.

What is your point, God has placed the man as the head of the family, man was first woman was created from man to be a help maid, in our modern society woman can vote they can serve in the military they hold high elected offices they run corporations and in some countries they run them. In christianity the woman is subject to the man, ok you got us on that one.

Quote by: Aeris That's actually something I don't understand either. In the new testaments, there appear to be only two rules "Love your God as the one true God" and "Love your neighbor as yourself." Furthermore, in arguements about say the morality of homosexuality or capital punishment, Christians can draw verses from both testaments, but when issues like slavery or cruelty towards women and children are brought up suddenly the verses in the New Testament don't count.

What cruelty to woman and children?

[Sonart]

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Quote by: shield What cruelty to woman and children?

"Thus saith the LORD of hosts ... go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." -- 1 Samuel 15:2-3


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[RickSp]

Quote by: shield772 Because the ten comandments happen to be the basis for western civilizations rules of law, it's history. Like every other monument we put up.

So you quote the Mosaic code that you like and claim you are not bound by that you don't. Highly convenient.

[Jack]

That's part of the beauty of the christian philosophy. It's constructed to leave an out for its members while still allowing them to identify with the concept.

No one, especially in this modern world, could possibly live in such a way as to observe all the bible's laws, edicts and expectations. If such where the expectation, there wouldn't be any followers of that religion. But the early leaders realized that followers would balk at having to observe every law, follow every commandment to the letter. So they allowed for humans to blame their failing to completely follow the bible on their very human-ness, and to suggest that god forgave such shortcomings as long as other conditions were met (baptism, fellowship, etc.). So you could ascribe to a supposedly perfect faith without having to be perfect yourself, and excuse your imperfection without guilt.

One thing I will credit the early church fathers with, and that's an amazing insight into how people in groups think and how to propagate a movement that pretends to aspire to perfection without actually demanding that as a reality. It isn't novel, but it is clever.

[Sonart]

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Quote by: shield Because the ten comandments happen to be the basis for western civilizations rules of law, it's history. Like every other monument we put up.

Really???? 'Thou shalt have no other god before me' is the basis for western civilizations?




Thou shall make no graven images?????




That's a basis for western civilizations rules of law and history? Thou shalt honor thy parents???? Thou shalt not take the name of God in vain???? Thou shalt not covet??? Hell, it strikes me that American civilization is designed around material coveting.



Seems a fairly thin basis for western civilizations rules of law, don't you think, Shield?

Beyond that, every civilization on earth -- and every religion -- has proscriptions against murder, lying, stealing, adultery, coveting and advocates that children should honor their parents. What's so special about the 10 Commandments?



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[shield772]

Spreading Islam in American Public Schools - Middle East Forum

Not only do Islamists want to censor the handling of Islamic topics at U.S. universities, as I noted in "Islamists Police the Classroom [at the University of South Florida]," but they also wish to do the same at grammar schools. More ominously yet, they wish to transform public schools at all levels into venues for spreading Islam. An undated posting at Islamic Information & Products - SoundVision.com home! posts a page titled "18 Tips for Imams and Community Leaders." The 15th tip, "Establish a parents' committee to monitor public schools," has special interest. It starts by asking if the local public school is teaching 10-year-olds that Muslims are terrorists and misogynists? If so, parents are advised to set up a committee "to monitor public school curriculum and developments" and arrange for Muslims to deliver talks about Islam and Muslims. For instance, as Ramadan approaches, a parent should explain the holiday to the school or in a social studies class. When a high-profile "incident of terrorism where Muslims are the perpetrators" takes place, the committee should ask to discuss Islam and terrorism. More broadly, the committee should lobby on behalf of Muslim concerns. Another website points to a far deeper agenda, that of da‘wa, or using taxpayer-funded schools to proselytize for Islam. www.DawaNet.com's goals are summed up by an article it hosts: "How to Make America an Islamic Nation." But what concerns us is a page, "Dawa in public schools," that portrays public schools as "fertile grounds where the seeds of Islam can be sowed inside the hearts of non-Muslim students. Muslim students should take ample advantage of this opportunity and present to their schoolmates the beautiful beliefs of Islam." This, the website asserts, is best achieved through both direct and indirect steps. Direct means overt da‘wa: * Host Islamic exhibitions. * Start an Islamic newsletter. * Set up "Dawa tables" offering Islamic literature. * Carry "Dawa flyers" from the Islamic Circle of North America and pass them out to non-Muslims. * Place advertisements in the school paper with a toll-free telephone number for non-Muslims to call to learn more about Islam. * Establish one-to-one contacts with non-Muslim students (along gender lines: "It is advised that brothers work with non-Muslim boys and sisters work with non-Muslim girls"). Indirect partially means creating a good image for Islam: * Found Muslim groups that portray Islam "in a positive way," such as a Muslim Students Association, Islamic Circle, or Quran Study Group. * Engage in "simple actions that reflect living Islam," such as saying "Insha Allah" (God willing), praying, and wearing Islamic-style clothing. * Take advantage of disasters to set up a disaster relief assistance booth to give "a very positive picture of Islam and Muslims." Or indirect means increasing consciousness of Islam: * Make use of the school newspaper: "Being a writer will give you ample opportunity to provide Islamically oriented articles which will Insha Allah [if God wishes] open the hearts and minds of readers." Ideally, an article on Islam should appear in each issue. If the school does not allow overt preaching, "Alhamdu lillah, there are ways to circumvent this problem," such as reporting on Islamic events or writing about Islamic holidays. "This way, you are still presenting an aspect of Islam without coming across as a preacher." DawaNet.com also coyly instructs its adepts "to have a good rapport with the editor and the writing staff of the paper." * Lobby to include Islamic dates on the school calendar. * Add books and magazines on Islam written by Muslims to the school library; if the library does not purchase them, raise the money to donate them. * Incorporate Islam into class projects. For example, "for a speech class, if there is freedom to choose a topic, an Islamic topic should be selected. Similar opportunities can be created in history, social science, writing and other classes." DawaNet.com concludes by reminding Muslims that the will of Allah, faith, and Muslim creativity combined to win victories in the past and can again in the future: Schools and campuses are no exceptions as places where Islam can be victorious. … We should use every opportunity to sensitize non-Muslim peers and school staff to Islam and to establish an environment in which everywhere a non-Muslim turns, he notices Islam portrayed in a positive way, is influenced by it and eventually accepts Islam. Comments: (1) This is a total perversion of the American public space, a blatant effort to suborn it to serve Islamic missionary purposes. (2) Such an attempt by Islamists hardly comes as a surprise but rather complements their already in-place campaign to exploit textbooks and curricula supplements for da‘wa purposes. (3) The "multikulti" spirit so prevalent in American schools today means that too many parents, teachers, and administrators find themselves virtually helpless to stand up to this assault on the traditional values of the public school. __________ Dec. 5, 2004 update: DawaNet has added another page that further amplifies these points, "Working with your children's public school teachers." June 13, 2004 update: A project sponsored by Muslim American Society, begun in April 2003, is titled "Understanding the Muslim Student in Public Schools" and is a standard-issue Islamist program to bring "brothers" and "sisters" into the public schools, in this case in Columbia, Missouri, where the author of this project is employed by the school district. Among other highlights, the project instructs kindergarten teachers to encourage their students to fast during Ramadan and high school teachers to let their students pray in school.