How to Handle Prostitution

[Compugasm]

Seeker, I'm still not convinced it was a bad idea. Example, the child prostitution. The Ministry of Justice says:

"The NZ Police estimated that there were around 200 under age sex workers. Under age workers were defined as those under 18. Over half of these sex workers were, according to the police, located in the street sector. However, the NZPC did not consider that there were significant numbers of under age sex workers working in the industry. In particular they noted that not all young people living on the street are working as sex workers, although they are sometimes identified as such."

I think the fact that now that it's legalized, lead to reporting more incidents, because there is no chance of being arrested for being a prostitute. That doesn't mean the industry is growing out of control. Example, the identified child prostitutes. At first, I thought there were 1000's of child prostitutes. But, with only 200 of them, even a 25% increase would be unoticeable.

[Fonceai]

Seeker's example and list of issues are a good list of things that would be lessened or eliminated if there were actual licensing.

You can have all the under-age whores you want, they'll always attract the pervert types, but for the rest of us we can pursue those with medical clearance and licenses.

Same with diseases, brothels, etc.

A little government regulation on each of those points can help a messy situation.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Seeker_Of_Sins Prostitution became legal in NZ three years back. 1.The result has been a rise in street prostitutes rather than parlour prostitutes, (one of the points raised in favour of decrimilisation was that prostitutes with criminal convictions couldnt work in parlours and were therefore more vulnerable so legalising prostitution would create a safer environment for workers), the opposite has been the case.

Was there a government restriction put in place, such that it would be illegal for prostitutes with criminal convictions to work in parlors? My guess is that there was, but I can't be sure yet. Also see my response to #5 below.

2. There has been a dramatic rise in child prostitution, the legalising of prostitution has legitimised the work and therefore more young people enter it because the social taboos have been removed

Isn't prostitution of minors still illegal?

3. There has been an increase of violence towards prostitutes and an increase in the number of murders on prostitutes, the belief is that possible gang related issues are in play

I imagine that, as others have pointed out, this is more a result of increase in reporting crimes rather than an increase in per se.

4. The cost has actually come down and now prostitutes are earning less and having to pay tax for the privilige

Government regulation. They've decided to tax prostitution along with legalizing it. After all, it's more money for their proverbial pockets, no?

5. Parlours compliance costs have increased causing many to go out of business which only enhances the number of prostitutes on the streets

Government regulation means compliance costs or else.

6. There has been an increase in the number of domestic residences opening as brothels which is now legal, this has created alot of strain in surburban communities where young families are prevelant as the 24 hour per day activity brings many undesirables into the area, properties surrounding domestic brothels have decreased in value and school children in the 15-17 year old bracket have more relaxed attitudes to the profession than others who dont normally come into contact with it

I imagine that it's cheaper to run a brothel out of a domestic residence, given the taxes and compliance costs mentioned above. Again, government regulation at work.

7. There has been a rise in the number of neglected children as single parents use their home as a brothel and whilst they are entertaining clients, their children are left to fend for themselves, there is also grave concern that these children will be in danger of attack by the prostitutes clients or open to danger from offers made by the prostitutes clients

Indeed. This is derivable from the previous point.

8. There has been an increase in STD's abortions and AIDS. The homo community has been especially vulnerable and instances of STD and AIDS related cases have increased by over 62%, whether this is because of more homo people entering into the profession or just a general disinterest in taking precautions is unknown

Good question. It would be interesting to find out if there have been more detailed studies in this area. What, if any, legal restrictions on bedroom activities exist in NZ?

On the other hand, this also proves that condoms and birth-control pills do not completely eliminate the threats of STDs and pregnancy. For better or for worse, the social conservatives have one thing right: abstinence is the only sure-fire way to avoid both.

As you can see, the legalisation of prostitution has benefited noone, and yet I still choose option 1. I see no reason for prostitution to be illegal, personal choice should be just that, I also think that all incomes sources should attract taxation.

Yet many of the problems you mention above are due to taxing prostitution. Tell me, has the NZ government also established licensing for prostitutes?

- Rob

[melodicdeath]

If prostitution were to become legal, corporations would just see it as a perfect oppurtunity to market their products through to the public by utilizing media forms which they are already doing too much of for the morale well-being of young minds.
Why don't we look at where society is right now because of the sexually liberated environment; we have misconceptions on men and women that are accompanied with degredation, humiliation, and violence, people who cannot seperate the real-world from pornographic scenarios, a high divorce rate, broken relationships, health disorders because of a fixation to maintain a body image ideal for sex, diseases, the negative influences are countless. So my question is, what is legalizing prostitution going to do positively for society? How will you feel when there are children setting their life ambitions towards being a prostitute? Cause that's how much sex is being more and more an asset in people's lives these days.

[Fonceai]

Damn.

Good question, melodicdeath.

I think the legalization movement is more for the fact that you can sell your services for money as long as it isn't sexual, but you can GIVE sex away for free.

But on the flip side, you raise a good question.

[Aeris]

Melodicdeath-

The same I think of children who grow up wanting to sell their bodies as models or sports figures. Property is property and skills are skills. The problem comes in when others are selling your body for profit.

The dirty secret about sex is that it isn't dirty at all.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: melodicdeath If prostitution were to become legal, corporations would just see it as a perfect oppurtunity to market their products through to the public by utilizing media forms which they are already doing too much of for the morale well-being of young minds. Why don't we look at where society is right now because of the sexually liberated environment; we have misconceptions on men and women that are accompanied with degredation, humiliation, and violence, people who cannot seperate the real-world from pornographic scenarios, a high divorce rate, broken relationships, health disorders because of a fixation to maintain a body image ideal for sex, diseases, the negative influences are countless. So my question is, what is legalizing prostitution going to do positively for society? How will you feel when there are children setting their life ambitions towards being a prostitute? Cause that's how much sex is being more and more an asset in people's lives these days.

Interestingly enough, what you describe today exists in spite of the legal prohibitions against prostitution. By your logic, ending alcohol prohibition lead to an increase in the number of alcoholics. What do you think about this?

- Rob

[brien]

Quote by: melodicdeath If prostitution were to become legal, corporations would just see it as a perfect oppurtunity to market their products through to the public by utilizing media forms which they are already doing too much of for the morale well-being of young minds. Why don't we look at where society is right now because of the sexually liberated environment; we have misconceptions on men and women that are accompanied with degredation, humiliation, and violence, people who cannot seperate the real-world from pornographic scenarios, a high divorce rate, broken relationships, health disorders because of a fixation to maintain a body image ideal for sex, diseases, the negative influences are countless. So my question is, what is legalizing prostitution going to do positively for society? How will you feel when there are children setting their life ambitions towards being a prostitute? Cause that's how much sex is being more and more an asset in people's lives these days.

Consider prostitution, and all of the sordid activity that surrounds it today because it is illegal, and then think of how all of those problems could be solved if prostitution is legal.
Furthermore, we could free up the police resources that currently investigates and prosecutes this so called "crime" to investigate and prosecute crimes related to sexual violence and sex slavery. It would also free up the authorities to focus upon other violent crimes.

Prostitution is best explained to minors when they are old enough to understand exactly what it is in society. This is a far better approach than allowing them to discover the sleazy side of illegal prostitution on their own.

Legalizing prostitution will remove the criminal element. It will also protect the "workers" from exploitation. It will protect the patrons from the transmission of STD's. It is a win win situation for everyone involved here.

[Fonceai]

@brien

Legalizing it will accomplish that first end, removal of the criminal element.

But protection can only come from regulation.

And when we talk about taxation, are we talking about taxing the clients or the whores?

@Aeris

You said two things I really really like.

That selling your body for sports or modeling isn't really much different than selling it for sex.

In fact, if you think about it, an athlete sells it for their physical skills, a model for physical looks, so a whore would be a combination of the two.

The second is that sex isn't dirty.

Many Americans have trouble with that.

[Aeris]

Quote by: Fonceai @Aeris You said two things I really really like. That selling your body for sports or modeling isn't really much different than selling it for sex. In fact, if you think about it, an athlete sells it for their physical skills, a model for physical looks, so a whore would be a combination of the two. The second is that sex isn't dirty. Many Americans have trouble with that.

As to the bolded part - exactly. Even in non-physical careers you are selling yourself. Your selling your mind, or your labour. You lease your body and service to the military when you enlist. I'm selling my people skills, my math skills and my typing skills to the bank. I get money in return for all of this.

My body is my property. I should have the right to decide what I want to do with it.

[Nono]

Your car is also your property. Do you think you should be able to drive it 100 MPH the wrong way down a crowded one-way street?

[Aeris]

Quote by: Nono Your car is also your property. Do you think you should be able to drive it 100 MPH the wrong way down a crowded one-way street?

Sure why not. But I should also have the responsibility not to.

People have rights to their lives, and there is a possiblity that I would deprive them of that basic right. It is immoral for me to do so.

But how would selling my body for sex deprive someone else of their rights?

[Autolykos]

Quote by: Nono Your car is also your property. Do you think you should be able to drive it 100 MPH the wrong way down a crowded one-way street?

Regardless of whether one should be able to, one is able to.

- Rob

[Aeris]

Quote by: Autolykos Regardless of whether one should be able to, one is able to. - Rob

But has the responsibility to peaceful society not to without being told not to.

[Nono]

Quote by: Aeris How would selling my body for sex deprive someone else of their rights?

Good question, and I'm not saying I have all the answers. My point was the ol' I-can-do-whatever-I-please-with-my-property argument. I don't accept it.

[Aeris]

Quote by: Nono Good question, and I'm not saying I have all the answers. My point was the ol' I-can-do-whatever-I-please-with-my-property argument. I don't accept it.

True, but your example is flawed. Is the street upon which I am driving my property? Is the stoplight I run my property? Are the cars and pedestrians I hit my property? No. And that is why I cannot do anything I want with them. The car and only the car is my property. I can color it, mod it etc etc etc so long as it only effects the car.

My body is like the car - I can do what I like with it so long as it doesn't effect something else. Unless of course that something else is paying me to effect it.

[Nono]

The point -- and again I'm not making an argument against legalized prostitution here, a subject about which I haven't entirely made up my mind -- is that I feel it's justified to consider the broader effect on society as a whole of any activity. It's the old question about the point at which exercising my rights harms you in yours. For example, I think of Oliver Wendell Holmes' ruling in which he said "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater."

[Aeris]

Quote by: Nono The point -- and again I'm not making an argument against legalized prostitution here, a subject about which I haven't entirely made up my mind -- is that I feel it's justified to consider the broader effect on society as a whole of any activity. It's the old question about the point at which exercising my rights harms you in yours. For example, I think of Oliver Wendell Holmes' ruling in which he said "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater."

That is a problem isn't it. The point differs in accordance to an individual's opinions. Now I understand your problem with the argument, and quite frankly its one of the holes I have a problem with. But I'm still not willing to relinquish it.

To continue with my thoughts on your point:

So if we allow prostitution, what do we allow next? If we dont' allow it, what will be ciminalized next? No matter what, people will not be happy with the outcome.

[brien]

Quote by: Fonceai @brien Legalizing it will accomplish that first end, removal of the criminal element. But protection can only come from regulation. And when we talk about taxation, are we talking about taxing the clients or the whores? .

Regulation doesn't necessarily mean government regulation. See my previous post # 48 on this.

I am against any "screwy" form of taxation Also in my previous post.

[brien]

Quote by: Nono The point -- and again I'm not making an argument against legalized prostitution here, a subject about which I haven't entirely made up my mind -- is that I feel it's justified to consider the broader effect on society as a whole of any activity. It's the old question about the point at which exercising my rights harms you in yours. For example, I think of Oliver Wendell Holmes' ruling in which he said "The most stringent protection of free speech would not protect a man falsely shouting fire in a theater."

We have examined some of the benefits some of us think will benefit society here in this thread, but very little about whose rights may be harmed by legalization. So as Nono asks, whose rights may be harmed in legalization of Prosititution?