How to Handle Prostitution

[Fonceai]

Strip clubs are different from actual sex.

Some of them are just bars with nude girls dancing. Some are more friendly.
Some people see a distinction. I know I do... <grins>

I agree with lsbskins... by the time paid sex is legal, I don't think it will matter what gender they are.

[Autolykos]

Quote by: lsbskins1 Ok, so some of you hate taxes and regulation. I get that. But can we at least agree that the reason people consented to government regulation in the first place was that it was discovered that left to their own devices, big business and "the market" do NOT adequately protect the consumer.

No.

So, short of some sort of government regulation, how do those of you who don't want it (regulation) propose we keep the clients and the emplyees safe from the DEADLY and life altering and dibilitating diseases that are sexually transmitted?

They would have to take care of themselves, and caveat emptor. In other words, why should "we" have to "keep" anyone "safe" from anything?

It is too late for 100's or perhaps 1000's, maybe even millions of people once one of those bugs get hold of them. Does it really serve them to say, "Well, the market will take care of those who infect their customers. Their business will dry up."? What recourse, short of enforceable regulation, does one have?

Recourse? You're going to have to explain yourself more here, I'm afraid.

- Rob

[Autolykos]

@Fonceai

There indeed is regulation of prostitution in the US. It's regulation of the criminal kind. If a prostitute is caught performing her trade, she is arrested and sent to jail. One could say the same thing about the illegal drug trade.

What are the facts here, according to you? And what is your idea of the "right" direction? (These are honest questions. I am really trying to understand more where you're coming from.)

- Rob

[ladyphoenix]

Quote by: Aeris One would think that would stop them from going to strip clubs too, but it doesn't. Hey, what about homosexual prostitutes? I mean, its still illegal to have anal or oral sex in Minnesota. What if someone wants some company from the same team? Would we change those laws?

I always wondered how they prosecuted those crimes... how in the hell does one know that one is doing that unless they catch them in the act? And in one's own home, the only time someone would be caught in the act is if an officer of the law was in hot pursuit of a criminal that ended up going through your home. Also, is the reciver as guilty as the giver?

[Aeris]

Quote by: ladyphoenix I always wondered how they prosecuted those crimes... how in the hell does one know that one is doing that unless they catch them in the act? And in one's own home, the only time someone would be caught in the act is if an officer of the law was in hot pursuit of a criminal that ended up going through your home. Also, is the reciver as guilty as the giver?

I assume that it is much like the SWAT team and they burst into houses randomly at night in full gear, hanging from helecopters by ropes.

Or...they just don't enforce them and the damn things should just be taken off the books.

Also, I forget exactly what country, but in some Asian country its illegal to recieve oral sex, but not to give it....or the other way around. So apparently they don't think so.

[ladyphoenix]

hehehehehe, probably not the receiving... Think about it. Arrest women for giving and not men for reciving. That makes sense.

:)

[Fonceai]

@Autolykos

Some facts, then:

At present, it's buyer beware. The client goes to a whore (I'm lazy, tired of typing prostitute) and pays the whore for sex acts. In GTA style, that client can then kill the whore and take the money. The whore or pimp can kill the client and take their money. Any number of things can happen because there is no safe environment for soliciting a whore.

For the whores, they can be independent and have no protection or have a pimp and be protected from everyone but the pimp. All sorts of other dangers there.

Now consider places like Vegas, Canada, and Europe; models for regulation and licensing.

Clients enter an establishment and pay a cover charge. That charge is for costs to keep the establishment running. Whores enter the establishmen and ALSO pay a charge. That charge is also for costs.

Now clients and whores are in an actual location. The whore carries with her her license and medical clearance that shows her last "inspection" date and when her next "inspection" is due. Government stamps, so forgery of the document is a felony. The client picks a whore, the whore can agree or not agree, they discuss pricing (prostitution is a seller's market, after all) and then they go into a private room. Everything is video recorded except the rooms themselves. Any problems in the room, there is a panic button that calls the bouncers.

Everything is handled nice and clean and organized.

Those are the facts of how it is run in the nicer places.

If you choose to go to a lesser place, you run other risks, but you at least have the CHOICE.

[Osborn F Enready]

Does a person own their body?

Who is the government to say that a person can't lease their own body?
Isn't that what a job is?

[Nono]

Option 1 sounds right to me for all the reasons others have stated.

Still, there's the nagging fact that, in practice, prostitution -- in many places (not least Europe) and in an increasing number of cases -- rhymes with slavery. That's an uncomfortable fact, and attempts ban pimping as opposed to simple prositution haven't solved the problem.

[Nono]

Quote by: Fonceai Now consider places like Vegas, Canada, and Europe; models for regulation and licensing.

Tell us about Canada.

[Autolykos]

So the question is, what about regulation necessarily makes it "safe"? My answer is, nothing. In the absence of regulation, if prostitution were legal, I would think that it would still be conducted mainly in establishments, and the sexual activities would still be videotaped. Why? Because the establishments would have an interest in maximizing the safety of their employees, clients, and anyone else involved.

On the other hand, there is ultimately nothing, short of physical ability, preventing either of the death scenarios that you've described. However, I submit that such incidents are more likely when a behavior is actively prosecuted by the state. In other words, an illegal enterprise is (surprise, surprise!) going to be dominated by criminals. There are two other examples -- Prohibition and the illegal drug trade. During Prohibition, organized crime took over the production and distribution of alcohol. Once it was over, organized crime left the alcohol industry. Now, with certain other drugs declared illegal, organized crime has taken over their production and distribution.

My point is, it seems to me that decriminalization/legalization will do far more to make prostitution safer than any amount of regulation. Licensing serves as a restriction (at least for lawful establishments), and taxation only means the government makes more money than it does today. While I would rather see prostitution legal and regulated than entirely illegal, I would most want to see it simply legal.

- Rob

[Osborn F Enready]

AutoLykos said: My point is, it seems to me that decriminalization/legalization will do far more to make prostitution safer than any amount of regulation.

I say:
I fully agree.

[lsbskins1]

Quote by: Autolykos No.

This answer ignores the history of business and customer safety. If you do not agree, you either do not accept the plain fact that businesses in the "Guilded Age" exposed both their employees and their customers to many dangers. Not all businesses, but a significant number. Or it challenges the presumption that people wanted regulation, the historical fact of "muckrakers" and popular demand for the very regulation we speak of being the "facts" that put the lie to your position. or, maybe as a third option, it is a combination of the two.

Quote by: Autolykos They would have to take care of themselves, and caveat emptor. In other words, why should "we" have to "keep" anyone "safe" from anything?

"We" should do it because it is more efficent and safer. John Q. Citizen can not, nor should he be expected to be expert in all the different goods and services he wants and needs. A limited, and by no means complete, set of examples:

I can not inspect, with any usefulness, the soundness of the braking system on my car, the stability of FedEx Stadium when I go to a football game, or the level of maintainence on a 747 at the airport. I can not know if the thorasic surgeon is properly trained, nor can I know if McDonalds is keeping their refrigeration system at the correct temprature. I can not tell if the wiring in my house is safe, nor if any of the drivers of 18 wheelers have been trained. Do I REALLY need to go on? I can if you need me to do so.

Quote by: Autolykos Recourse? You're going to have to explain yourself more here, I'm afraid. - Rob

Because there are codes and regulations and licensing requirements for all the things I mentioned above, we can hold business owners to safe standards. Without those codes, our world is less safe. It is less safe because there is no real personal and concrete consequence to exposing the public to unnecessary danger. Absent those codes, etc., how would you ensure that multitudes were not harmed because Mr. Weasel was willing to close his whorehouse after his business dried up from the death reputation his business EVENTUALLY got, and open a new business called "CFC's 'R' Us.

[Fonceai]

@Nono

See post #27 on page 2.

That is EXACTLY how a club named "Private Eyes" is set up in Niagara Falls, Canada.

Hell, I didn't get any of the private action, but I got a great t-shirt with the club logo on the front and "Support the Performing Arts" on the back. I'll take a pic and post it in the Self-Pics thread.

@Os and Auto

But who would provide the third necessary aspect of Protection?

In regulation is a degree of safety.

If I have a choice between a cheap whore with no license or medical verification in a back alley somewhere or mid-level brothel, and a licensed whore that just got her medical checkup last week in a classy place with good alcohol, good music, and comfortable rooms, I'm going to choose the cleaner, licensed one.

The whore would be a certified sex professional. I won't go to an unlicensed medical professional, be driven by an unlicensed driver, or drink in an unlicensed bar. I don't want the nervous feeling of not knowing what could happen and not being able to have some sort of protection available if something went wrong.

[PatrickHenry]

I made the poll transparent so that we could all view the responses by community members.

I believe that this endeavor should be regulated as a business, but no special regulations like for the current liquor license, etc.

My reasoning: As most folks have responded, the present situation of selective enforcement creates disrespect for the law and many other ills. What we have now is broken. I included the two more stringent options for the handful of moralists among us who think that enforcement might help.

I too am a moralist. I regard prostitution as morally wrong, but its lengthy history and pervasiveness means that eliminating it wil be impossible. And just because something is morally wrong doesn't mean that the State has a responsibility to interfere. We have done away with laws against drunkenness, adultery, lying and other victimless "crimes." I see no need for the State to "protect" us from prostitution. Our protection from sin should be our own integrity. Crimes that have victims should be prosecuted.

But I am extremely reluctant to create another bureaucracy for regulating prostitution for two reasons. One is my stance that Statist bureaucracies have their own set of problems attendant, among them the potential for corruption and graft, favoritism, and a tendency to inflate over time. I also hate the thought that the State would lend its stamp of approval to something as awful as prostitution. By granting it a license, the State shows an active approval of this sinful activity.

Far better to simply treat it as any other business, meaning no favored tax treatment, but also no special laws and bureaucracy.

I do favor some restrictions, among them disallowing billboard and other in-your-face advertising. I don't wish to explain such matters to my curious children. They will discover this activity soon enough without the publicity. I would also favor some community standards, even up to disallowing the activity if the majority doesn't want it.

There will always be a black market unless there is deregulation. Maybe there will always be a cash business, too, since folks will reason that they need not pay any business taxes whatsoever. But a State bureaucracy for this business will not solve the current problem of the black market, with the pimps and crime. More regulation will just result in the same underworld of avoiding the scrutiny of the State, while also lending the legitimacy of State licensing for something I find apalling...

[Fonceai]

Ack! I just noticed the poll!

TAXATION!!

Gives a whole new definition to "tax that ass".

<grins>

Seriously, a complete LACK of regulation wouldn't help, either.

The Vegas system is the only one I've actually read completely, and it's very well written.

[PatrickHenry]

I think prostitution in Nevada is legal. Does Las Vegas have brothels?

[Aeris]

Quote by: PatrickHenry I think prostitution in Nevada is legal. Does Las Vegas have brothels?

I saw a documentary on it. Its actually not Las Vegas but some town south of it which does in fact have a brothel. But its not legal anywhere else. I forgot why.

But then again, the discovery channel has never been known as the eternal beacon of truth.

[Nono]

Quote by: PH Does Las Vegas have brothels?

Is the pope Catholic?

Quote by: Aeris Its actually not Las Vegas but some town south of it which does in fact have a brothel.

I couldn't swear to the facts of the matter (certainly not by personal experience), but it seems to me that the whole state, including Vegas, is crammed with advertising for brothels, so it would be mighty strange if it were only one town. And would this be a matter of municipal law?

[Osborn F Enready]

Fonce said: But who would provide the third necessary aspect of Protection?

I say:
The law.

Prostitutes have rights, and they have a right to have a "john" sign a terms of service contract. Contracts can be upheld by law, as can rights.

Rights are all that need to be upheld, to achieve justice.