Volconvo is a debate forum for the discussion of political, religious, and news-based topics.

FIFI · Apr 19, 2004, 03:14 pm

A-h-h. Hello again everyone. I have decided to post about another touchy subject.

ABORTION. Now, before you go running to your keyboard to share your view with me, I would like this to be based on an (untrue) scenareo.

An eighteen year old highschool senior believes she and her boyfriend are in love. They act physically on there feelings, but the relationship ends a few months later.
Suddenly, the girl find that she is pregnant from her last sexual act with her now ex-boyfriend, and is two months pregnant. She has to options:
ABORTION or ADOPTION?

Now here is the question:
Should she have to tell her parents?
Should she have the option of abortion? (should abortion be illegal?)
and of course: WHY OR WHY NOT??

*Edited Suburbanite, dont use all caps for the titles*

SVMc · Apr 19, 2004, 03:34 pm

The problem with positing real life questions to hypothetical situations is that nothing ever happens in a bubble. Generally there are a few instances where most people can agree that abortion should be available:

Rape
Incest
Life of the Mother is in Danger

After that you get into name slinging. I think we should accept from the get-go that most people have their minds made up on this one or have had their minds made up for them. Both sides will call each other names and neither will be able to provide substantive proof to satisfy the other. I would like to believe that we can have a civilized productive exchange of ideas surrounding abortion, but I anticipate the one-liners and name-calling will be more prevalent.

That being said. In your scenario I believe abortion should be available to all women. I believe that abortion should be preceded by counseling and ensuring the woman is aware of all the other options as well as the risk and support available to her. I believe the father has the right to be informed, and that should he oppose the abortion and be willing to financially support the pregnancy then the child or put the child up for adoption his legal rights should be recognized. However, it is ultimately a mutual decision where neither party can supersede the rights of another. I do not believe a fetus of 2 months is a person. Others will disagree with me, but we are all entitled to our opinions.

Mia · Apr 19, 2004, 05:13 pm

I think SVMc is right - people have their minds made up and they're not going to be changed. It's a question of values, where they thing life begins, whether they are religious and what their religion tells them about it, and what they think of the hypothetical.

Since there are too many bases that common ground can't be established on, it's going to remain contested hotly, and most likely a debate cannot remain civil or productive. But we can post what we think and not argue about it!

I think they girl should give it up for adoption. That's the mature and responsible thing to do. She should not have to tell her parents anything - she is 18. As to whether she should be able to abort...I can't know everything in her mind and the future so I prefer the law allow her to make that choice (at two months, anyway).

I do think counseling as to all the options should be given and it made known that people will pay her expenses to have it and give it to a loving family.

PatrickHenry · Apr 19, 2004, 05:52 pm

As an grampaw, I favor keepin' your kids. My advice: figure out how to keep a family going and reach your other goals at the same time. If you let your kids get away from you through either abortion or adoption, chances are you will miss'em later unless you really don't want descendants. Granted that pregnancy is inconvenient nearly every time. (Thank you, Mom)

For your other questions: At eighteen, you're an adult and get to figure it out on your own. You want to keep it away from Mom and Dad,(maybe they wouldn't be supportive)OK. But think about how it might feel as a grandparent to know that one of your grandkids is missing...

Birthcontrol is pretty widely available, as is the information. I don't see why women get pregnant if they don't want a baby. Precautions are so much easier than abortion, and we aren't just animals...

Mozart1220 · Apr 19, 2004, 06:01 pm

I believe abortion should be legal, but I think that if kids ahd the proper education AND access to birth control without having to ask Mom and Dad first, many abortions could be prevented.

Eliminate the NEED for abortions.

Take Utah for example...NO sex education, teachers aren't even ALLOWED to say "condom" in the classroom. Only abstinence is taught. And it must be working too, Utah has(or had when I lived there) the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country. My daughter, who was 17at the time, said that she tried to buya condom at a 7-11 and the cleark wouldn't sell her one because she was under 18. I went up and ripped that clerk a new asshole, but she said it was "company policy" and called ME a bad parent for "encoraging my children to have sex".

Ignorance is everywhere, Let's educate our children.

dotcoma · Apr 19, 2004, 06:11 pm

I don't want the government to have any more power than they already have. That's the only thing holding me back from supporting a ban on abortions. I think abortions are disgusting. It reduces the human species to nothing...worthy of tossing in the trash so Dick and Jane can have sex. I have had false alarms before and been scared to death but the thought of having my girlfriend murder our child never crossed my mind.

dotcoma · Apr 19, 2004, 06:12 pm

If someone wants an abortion they should perform it themselves. That'll change their perspective.

Mozart1220 · Apr 19, 2004, 06:21 pm

Kind of like saying if a smoker gets lung cancer they should perform the surgery themselves. Brilliant!.

Apr 19, 2004, 06:47 pm

I have a different slant on this topic. Women have been aborting pregnancies since before recorded history. Women will continue to have abortions in the future no matter what anyone says. It would be wrong to make these women criminals by outlawing abortions. If a woman does not want to have a child, you or I have no right to force her. However, the only caveat I would propose is late term abortions. I think that when a fetus is developed enough to be viable outside the womb, then the woman does not have the right to abort that pregnancy. When that fetus can live on its own, it becomes a child. If the woman really doesn't want a child late in her pregnancy, she could have the child C-sectioned and given up for adoption.

dotcoma · Apr 19, 2004, 06:51 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by Mozart1220,
Kind of like saying if a smoker gets lung cancer they should perform the surgery themselves. Brilliant!.

I don't see the connection. Children are the same thing as cancer?

Mia · Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 pm

I agree with the late-term thing. But she shouldn't have a c-section prematurely and harm the baby's ability to grow. At that point she should suck it up and take it to term and give it to a couple dying to have it if she doesn't want it.

I also think the father should have to sign off on an abortion.

If women can have children the man doesn't want from an accidental pregnancy and force him to pay child support for 18 years, he should be able to force her to have it and let him raise it.

The above two scenarios are based on there being no risk to mom or baby's life or health.

Mia · Apr 19, 2004, 06:58 pm

Quote:

Originally posted by roxdog,+--></div><table border='0' align='center' width='95%' cellpadding='3' cellspacing='1'><tr><td>QUOTE (roxdog,)</td></tr><tr><td id='QUOTE'><!--QuoteBegin-Mozart1220,
Kind of like saying if a smoker gets lung cancer they should perform the surgery themselves. Brilliant!.

I don't see the connection. Children are the same thing as cancer?[/b][/quote]

No but what you said is not reasonable - it's based on your extreme feelings against abortion. That is your right, but your solution isn't.

tusaki · Apr 19, 2004, 07:00 pm

I believe abortions should be legal when the mother's life is in jeopardy. For the rest (i.e. the girl got pregnant but didn't want to, but it was her own fault.), why not give the child up for adoption? there are thousands of child-less couples, which would be more than happy to give the child a happy childhood. There is no justifiable reason to unnecessarily terminate life.

Paavo · Apr 19, 2004, 07:29 pm

"she"... "her fault"...yada yada. Isn't it his fault just as much? Talk about THEM.
Anyway, I'm drunk, and I'll return tomorrow to actually give something worthwhile to the thread.

Mia · Apr 19, 2004, 07:34 pm

Drunks can be moderators? I want to sign up.....

Paavo · Apr 19, 2004, 07:37 pm

I'm not a drunk, I'm just drunk. As of now. Hey, it's monday.

Mia · Apr 19, 2004, 07:41 pm

Just kidding with you ;-)

SVMc · Apr 19, 2004, 10:28 pm

Wow this has been bizzarly civil. I'm impressed. So generally we're still where we were in the begining pretty much.

I think the point made about birth control made earlier is good. I mean I've never understood the rationale behind not allowing teens access to birth control.

Suburbanite · Apr 19, 2004, 11:46 pm

The problem isn't it being legal or not. The problem is that for this little girl it would be a quick fix at the cost of an unborn child. The problem isn't what the law says about abortion, it is that people are doing it! That has to stop. Whatever it is, murder or not, it is sick.

SVMc · Apr 19, 2004, 11:54 pm

Quote:

The problem isn't what the law says about abortion, it is that people are doing it! That has to stop.

I'm tempted to put quite a few qualifiers on that, such as:

The problem is that people are not using birth control or protection during sex. And that following that it could be argued that abortion is becoming a viable second tier of birth control when we have much better means.

I do not see abortion as a "problem of people doing it" when there are compelling reasons such as rape, incest, mother's life in danger. However I will also argue that only an individual person can assess their own life and make their own choice so I will defend a woman's right to choose.

I think the problem is encouraging a fast-food service culture where everything is supposed to be focussed on short-term immediate results, rather than long-term solutions

Apr 19, 2004, 03:14 pm	#1 (permalink) (top)
FIFI THROBBIN ROBIN Location: USA Posts: 311	A-h-h. Hello again everyone. I have decided to post about another touchy subject. ABORTION. Now, before you go running to your keyboard to share your view with me, I would like this to be based on an (untrue) scenareo. An eighteen year old highschool senior believes she and her boyfriend are in love. They act physically on there feelings, but the relationship ends a few months later. Suddenly, the girl find that she is pregnant from her last sexual act with her now ex-boyfriend, and is two months pregnant. She has to options: ABORTION or ADOPTION? Now here is the question: Should she have to tell her parents? Should she have the option of abortion? (should abortion be illegal?) and of course: WHY OR WHY NOT?? Edited Suburbanite, dont use all caps for the titles DON'T TAKE AWAY MY RIGHTS JUST BECAUSE YOU DON'T EXERCISE YOURS. Better to be thought a fool with ones mouth shut, than to speak and remove all doubt

Apr 19, 2004, 03:34 pm	#2 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	The problem with positing real life questions to hypothetical situations is that nothing ever happens in a bubble. Generally there are a few instances where most people can agree that abortion should be available: Rape Incest Life of the Mother is in Danger After that you get into name slinging. I think we should accept from the get-go that most people have their minds made up on this one or have had their minds made up for them. Both sides will call each other names and neither will be able to provide substantive proof to satisfy the other. I would like to believe that we can have a civilized productive exchange of ideas surrounding abortion, but I anticipate the one-liners and name-calling will be more prevalent. That being said. In your scenario I believe abortion should be available to all women. I believe that abortion should be preceded by counseling and ensuring the woman is aware of all the other options as well as the risk and support available to her. I believe the father has the right to be informed, and that should he oppose the abortion and be willing to financially support the pregnancy then the child or put the child up for adoption his legal rights should be recognized. However, it is ultimately a mutual decision where neither party can supersede the rights of another. I do not believe a fetus of 2 months is a person. Others will disagree with me, but we are all entitled to our opinions. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 19, 2004, 05:13 pm	#3 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I think SVMc is right - people have their minds made up and they're not going to be changed. It's a question of values, where they thing life begins, whether they are religious and what their religion tells them about it, and what they think of the hypothetical. Since there are too many bases that common ground can't be established on, it's going to remain contested hotly, and most likely a debate cannot remain civil or productive. But we can post what we think and not argue about it! I think they girl should give it up for adoption. That's the mature and responsible thing to do. She should not have to tell her parents anything - she is 18. As to whether she should be able to abort...I can't know everything in her mind and the future so I prefer the law allow her to make that choice (at two months, anyway). I do think counseling as to all the options should be given and it made known that people will pay her expenses to have it and give it to a loving family. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 19, 2004, 05:52 pm	#4 (permalink) (top)
PatrickHenry 9/11: Inside Job Location: Hawai'i, Big Island Posts: 10,437	As an grampaw, I favor keepin' your kids. My advice: figure out how to keep a family going and reach your other goals at the same time. If you let your kids get away from you through either abortion or adoption, chances are you will miss'em later unless you really don't want descendants. Granted that pregnancy is inconvenient nearly every time. (Thank you, Mom) For your other questions: At eighteen, you're an adult and get to figure it out on your own. You want to keep it away from Mom and Dad,(maybe they wouldn't be supportive)OK. But think about how it might feel as a grandparent to know that one of your grandkids is missing... Birthcontrol is pretty widely available, as is the information. I don't see why women get pregnant if they don't want a baby. Precautions are so much easier than abortion, and we aren't just animals... "Arms in the hands of the citizens may be used at individual discretion for the defense of the country, the overthrow of tyranny or private self-defense." -- John Adams

Apr 19, 2004, 06:01 pm	#5 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	I believe abortion should be legal, but I think that if kids ahd the proper education AND access to birth control without having to ask Mom and Dad first, many abortions could be prevented. Eliminate the NEED for abortions. Take Utah for example...NO sex education, teachers aren't even ALLOWED to say "condom" in the classroom. Only abstinence is taught. And it must be working too, Utah has(or had when I lived there) the highest teen pregnancy rate in the country. My daughter, who was 17at the time, said that she tried to buya condom at a 7-11 and the cleark wouldn't sell her one because she was under 18. I went up and ripped that clerk a new asshole, but she said it was "company policy" and called ME a bad parent for "encoraging my children to have sex". Ignorance is everywhere, Let's educate our children. Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 19, 2004, 06:11 pm	#6 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	I don't want the government to have any more power than they already have. That's the only thing holding me back from supporting a ban on abortions. I think abortions are disgusting. It reduces the human species to nothing...worthy of tossing in the trash so Dick and Jane can have sex. I have had false alarms before and been scared to death but the thought of having my girlfriend murder our child never crossed my mind.

Apr 19, 2004, 06:12 pm	#7 (permalink) (top)
dotcoma Volcanic Erupter Posts: 3,154	If someone wants an abortion they should perform it themselves. That'll change their perspective.

Apr 19, 2004, 06:21 pm	#8 (permalink) (top)
Mozart1220 Igneous Magma Posts: 687	Kind of like saying if a smoker gets lung cancer they should perform the surgery themselves. Brilliant!. Big Jr is watching you!

Apr 19, 2004, 06:47 pm	#9 (permalink) (top)
dave654 Guest Posts: n/a	I have a different slant on this topic. Women have been aborting pregnancies since before recorded history. Women will continue to have abortions in the future no matter what anyone says. It would be wrong to make these women criminals by outlawing abortions. If a woman does not want to have a child, you or I have no right to force her. However, the only caveat I would propose is late term abortions. I think that when a fetus is developed enough to be viable outside the womb, then the woman does not have the right to abort that pregnancy. When that fetus can live on its own, it becomes a child. If the woman really doesn't want a child late in her pregnancy, she could have the child C-sectioned and given up for adoption.

Apr 19, 2004, 06:56 pm	#11 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	I agree with the late-term thing. But she shouldn't have a c-section prematurely and harm the baby's ability to grow. At that point she should suck it up and take it to term and give it to a couple dying to have it if she doesn't want it. I also think the father should have to sign off on an abortion. If women can have children the man doesn't want from an accidental pregnancy and force him to pay child support for 18 years, he should be able to force her to have it and let him raise it. The above two scenarios are based on there being no risk to mom or baby's life or health. "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 19, 2004, 07:00 pm	#13 (permalink) (top)
tusaki Playful Location: Groningen, the Netherlands Posts: 805	I believe abortions should be legal when the mother's life is in jeopardy. For the rest (i.e. the girl got pregnant but didn't want to, but it was her own fault.), why not give the child up for adoption? there are thousands of child-less couples, which would be more than happy to give the child a happy childhood. There is no justifiable reason to unnecessarily terminate life. Hope & Dream

Apr 19, 2004, 07:29 pm	#14 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	"she"... "her fault"...yada yada. Isn't it his fault just as much? Talk about THEM. Anyway, I'm drunk, and I'll return tomorrow to actually give something worthwhile to the thread.

Apr 19, 2004, 07:34 pm	#15 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Drunks can be moderators? I want to sign up..... "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 19, 2004, 07:37 pm	#16 (permalink) (top)
Paavo Location: Finland Posts: 712	I'm not a drunk, I'm just drunk. As of now. Hey, it's monday.

Apr 19, 2004, 07:41 pm	#17 (permalink) (top)
Mia Retired Posts: 7,312	Just kidding with you ;-) "...with like-minded people one cannot discuss. With like-minded people one can only participate in a church service, and you know how I feel about church services." Ayaan Hirsi Ali

Apr 19, 2004, 10:28 pm	#18 (permalink) (top)
SVMc Lazy Sniper Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 513	Wow this has been bizzarly civil. I'm impressed. So generally we're still where we were in the begining pretty much. I think the point made about birth control made earlier is good. I mean I've never understood the rationale behind not allowing teens access to birth control. Capitalism is: Man exploiting man. Socialism is the other way around.

Apr 19, 2004, 11:46 pm	#19 (permalink) (top)
Suburbanite BANNED Location: Los Angeles Posts: 3,203	The problem isn't it being legal or not. The problem is that for this little girl it would be a quick fix at the cost of an unborn child. The problem isn't what the law says about abortion, it is that people are doing it! That has to stop. Whatever it is, murder or not, it is sick.