Teaching a daughter

[brien]

Quote by: underbear1 Having the human genome only mapped a few years ago, pretty much explains why one complicated trait involving multiple genes is perfectly proven. This isn't scientific but in 30 years of being openly gay, I haven't met ONE gay/lesbian or bisexual who said they CHOOSE to be attracted to the same sex...............I can't figure out why straights won't accept the fact, that the people who are attracted to their own sex, nearly unanimously say the same thing, "not a choice"

You make a good argument but the scientific community has not "come out", (no pun intended), on the side of genetic makeup for predisposition of sexual preference, so it is yet to be fact.

I do see one thing happening though. If the Medical Community does isolate the genetic makeup for sexual preference, you can bet your booty that some people will try and rearrange those genes in a preference for either homo or heterosexual children. Welcome to 1984, a little late.

[brien]

Quote by: underbear1 What exactly will happen the day scientists produce irrefutable evidence sexual orientation isn't chosen?

See my post above on this.

[another day]

The idea that sexual preference is chosen is ridiculous. There is simply way too much social pressure on young boys for them to "choose" to be gay.

Why do you think most of them are so effiminate? They have lower levels of testosterone and were born that way.

[brien]

Quote by: another day The idea that sexual preference is chosen is ridiculous. There is simply way too much social pressure on young boys for them to "choose" to be gay. Why do you think most of them are so effiminate? They have lower levels of testosterone and were born that way.

What you say may be pefectly true but we are discussing scientific proof. Which btw, is somewhat off topic.

As far as your second statement about young men being "effeminate", this is a dicey statement. This may be "effeminate" demeanor you are talking about which can be conditioned in the enviornment. If a young boy develops in his younger years entirely around females, both his age and his role models, he will most likely exhibit "effeminate" traits even though he may be as straight as an arrow. Particularly if sexual preference for being heterosexual/homosexual is genetic. It is the same as attempting to condition a gay to be straight. It can't be done. A male can exhibit all of the effeminate traits you can list, but he still can be straight because if you can't condition one to be "gay" then you can't condition one to be "straight" either.

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

Quote by: westcoastdog Homosexuality is found in almost all mammalian species, and even practiced by birds. You ought to read about bonobo chimps, and I guess you never raised rabbits, horney little devils. Give off your pulpit and read: http://www.boston.com/new...kes_people_gay/ .

There is no homosexuality in any animal species, no matter what the odd gay scientist may try and lead you to believe. There is a heirachy where dominant males get all the females based on power. Young males will simulate the mating procedure with other males in preperation for the day they are strong enough to compete for a mate. This is not homosexuality, simply nature in its rawest form.

Replication of apparent homosexual behaviour in animals is also easy to accomplish, take two male budgies, isolate them in a cage and they will mate in spring/summer, pair, bond, everything.......same with two females, once again this isnt homosexuality, simply instinct

I am not on any pulpit westcoast, I just refuse to be blustered into believeing bullshit just because its politically correct to do so

If you are looking to bonobo monkeys to justify your sexual choices, then maybe you are looking in the wrong place. I can assure you that bonobo monkeys neither know, or care about your sexual lifestyle choice

[underbear1]

Wrong!



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_in_animals
Homosexual behavior
The presence of same-sex sexual behavior was not scientifically observed on a large scale until recent times, possibly due to observer bias caused by social attitudes to same-sex sexual behavior. It appears to be widespread among insects, birds and mammals, particularly the apes. Many male penguins that apparently mate for life have been observed in homosexual pairs and refuse to pair with females when given the chance [4].

One report on sheep cited below states:

"Approximately eight percent of rams exhibit sexual preferences [that is, even when given a choice] for male partners (male-oriented rams) in contrast to most rams, which prefer female partners (female-oriented rams). We identified a cell group within the medial preoptic area/anterior hypothalamus of age-matched adult sheep that was significantly larger in adult rams than in ewes..." [citation needed]

[rcne]

So if being Gay has a scientific basis; and if a medical test could be developed to test for this condition;- would abortion then be wrong?
Gays may be safer sticking with choice rather than science.

[underbear1]

Would abortion then be wrong?
Would it be wrong for Lesbians to abort a straight fetus?

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

hehehe, that penguin story keeps on keeping on, and yet it has no basis on fact.........last I heard they introduced female penguins and all the supposed gay male penguins suddenly became hetro......raised a real hooplah from the gay community as well.......poor persecuted gay penguins.........hahahahaha...........too funny..........still grasp those straws if you feel a nedd underwear

[tman_ndsu08]

Quote by: rcne So if being Gay has a scientific basis; and if a medical test could be developed to test for this condition;- would abortion then be wrong?

This is a joke, right?

You're saying a mother would abort their child only because it was gay?

[westcoastdog]

Phoenix: Sooo...we're talking about practicing homo- and heterosexuals? Sounds more like a case of conditioned behavior to me. Behaviorism 101.

From the earliest age, culture stresses heterosexual behavior on children, yet despite this cultural indoctrination, young boys discover they are physically attracted to other boys and not to girls. There is incredible social pressure form families and peers to be sexually normal, yet homosexuality persists. Apparently, you never had good gay friends and had conversations about their childhood.

Sin seeker: There is no homosexuality in any animal species, no matter what the odd gay scientist may try and lead you to believe.

A Google search of animal homosexuality found 3,430,000 websites, quite a few for a nonexistent behavior. So you know scientists who observed homosexual behavior are gay? Read, "Biological exuberance : animal homosexuality and natural diversity" by Bruce Bagemihl.

The "Crime Against Nature" Sodomy has been stigmatized for century upon century, and in many cultures across the world and through time, mostly seeking to stigmatize relationships between members of the same sex. Almost invariably, when it is criminalized, those who criminalize it (or would do so) refer to it as the "crime against nature" or the "sin against nature." The presumption is that homosexual behavior is a perversion, and a uniquely human perversion, engaged in as the result of what is presumed to be a learned attraction to members of the same sex. There's only one problem with that assumption: None of it is true. J.B.S. Haldane may not have had homosexuality in mind when he uttered his famous quote about a queer universe, but it has proven to be far more prescient than he could ever have imagined. In the approximately 1,000 to 3,000 species whose behavior has been well researched and described in the literature, approximately 450 have been shown to have clear homosexual behaviors. As we'll learn in this essay, homosexuality is not at all exclusively a western, European cultural pattern as some Christian and Muslim fundamentalists and Afrocentrists (and even some African politicians) have long maintained. It's not even unique to humans. And any homosexual behavior you care to name - anal sex, same sex kissing, long-term pair bonding between members of the same sex, courtship rituals unique to homosexual couples, all these and many more are all commonly found in the animal kingdom. The Depth and Breadth of Human and Animal Homosexuality Homosexuality, for the purposes of this essay, can be defined as pair bonding and sex occurring between two or more members of the same sex in the same species. The depth and breadth of human homosexual experience is far more broad than most heterosexuals realize. Far more than just a quick romp in bed, homosexuality often, even usually, involves pair bonding as deep and as long-lasting as between members of heterosexual couples. Homosexual couples have been surveyed to determine just how pair-bonding compares to heterosexual couples, and it has been found that they tend to bond between pairs (though bonded groups of more than two are not unknown), and those bonds tend to compare to those of heterosexual couples for longevity and depth of bonding. How often does this occur? The figures vary depending on how the question is asked, but homosexuality runs between 3.5% and 10.1% of the population. These numbers are surprisingly consistent across cultures and across time. The percentage of gays who form pair bonds? While I haven't seen numbers, the number has to be quite high. Among my gay acquaintances, most are in long term relationships, and only a couple of them are single. Most of those that are single have recently left relationships and are actively looking for partners. Judging from the content of the personals column, this has to be the norm. This is not to say that all gays are tending to pair-bond. Some elect to have promiscuous, anonymous sex and don't want to be involved in relationships. Yet it's been my experience that this is usually the case with younger gay men, and often reflects a lack of emotional maturity. By the time such men are about thirty years of age, they begin to long for the emotional involvement and commitment that long term relationships offer. And they then look to settle into such relationships. Same-Sex Pair Bonding in Animals Just as in humans, animals often form long-term same-sex relationships. In species in which this normally occurs in heterosexual couples, that shouldn't come as a great surprise, but it does come as a surprise in species where heterosexual pair-bonds don't normally form for long if at all. This is true of bottlenose dolphins, which are not known to form heterosexual pair bonds, but which do in fact form homosexual pair bonds, including sex, and often lasting for life. In animals in which "bachelor groups" form, such as bison, gazelles, antelope, sage grouse and Guinean cocks-of-the-rock, it is not uncommon for same sex pair bonds to form and last until one or the other member of the pair departs the relationship and breeds. It is also not uncommon for homosexual preference to form among members of such bachelor groups; when offered the opportunity to breed unencumbered with members of the opposite sex or the same sex, they choose the same sex. Not At All Unusual Lest you are tempted to believe that all of this is highly unusual and well out of the ordinary, you're in for quite a surprise. Homosexual behavior is not only common, but even more common in other species than in humans. While numbers are hard to come by, there are a few that present some interesting patterns. In ostriches, male homosexuality is much more common than bisexuality, but among mule deer, bisexuality is more common than homosexuality. Among our closest living relatives, the bonobo chimpanzees, few if any are either exclusively heterosexual or homosexual. Indeed, all that have been observed are exclusively permanently bisexual. The occurence of homosexuality doesn't seem to be correlated with the predominance of a sex within a species. Some species show skewed sex ratios, but among them, homosexuality is not more common than in other species. For example, giant cowbirds and redwing blackbirds show male to female ratios as high as four to one, and in boat-tailed grackles and sparrow hawks, females predominate, but homosexuality has not been demonstrated in either species. Why is a mystery. Homosexuality in the animal kingdom is an undeniable fact. It is as natural as can be. Since it is so common, it is therefore logical for the opponents of gay rights to try to explain it away. It's high time we quit criminalizing something that is so normal, so natural, so harmless and so common among animals and recognize that what we call "sodomy" is really quite natural after all. We're animals. And being animals, we should quit trying to pretend that we're not. What we call a "crime against nature" isn't unnatural, and it shouldn't be a crime.

[Zhavric]

I'd also, when she was old enough to date, have her listen to "The Homo Song" by Mara Levi.

http://www.maralevi.com/homo.html

Homo Song Lyrics:

Dear old Mrs. So and So,
I thought I'd call and let you know
Your daughter is a big HOMO
And she's lying next to me

She came here of her own volition
No doubt wasting her tuition
Still it's true and now you're wishin'
She weren't here with me

She's been acting out this way
Since long before the fateful day
I brought her home so she could stay
Lying next to me

No matter how you sulk and fret
It's only girls that make her wet
And since it's true, well you can bet
She's lying next to me

Dear old Mr.. So and So,
I thought I'd call and let you know
Your daughter is a big HOMO
And she's lying next to me

She loves you still, she always will
But you can't fix her with a pill
Or try to take away the thrill
Of lying next to me

She wants your love and your respect
But if you push, she'll push right back
'Cause she's got friends and you've got JACK
If you don't let her be

For the apple of your eye
There must be something you can try
'Cause I can't stand to see her cry
Lying next to me

Dear old Mrs. So and So,
Just call her up and let her know
She can be a big HOMO
And you'll still love her so.

[Arawn-ap-Hywel]

Quote by: underbear1 But I was curious if the same straight people using anti-gay slurs could put themselves in the role of a parent of a queer kid.

queer kid!! Hell underbear1 kids test the hell out of you least some do, others are secretive little buggers (no pun intended) whom hide every move from even the most watchful parent.
Love undrestanding and moral guidance (here I mean do not kill or cause harm or lie etc) then when there hormones start buzzing look out, who knows what they might cross the threshold with
but you still love and be strong for them, they need you until the day you sense it's goodbye and in your heart you now need them, you need them to try and understand you did your best, which wasn't good enough sometimes.
All children stretch us and teenagers drive us to breaking point, we must strive to understand them occasionaly but must love and respect them, as we then can embrace and love whom ever they tell us they are in love with, for that person, however short or long a time daughter and her chosen one are together, becomes family too and that is very special indeed.

Raise daughters (and sons for that matter) with lots and lots of love and enjoy ever moment :)

[Seeker_Of_Sins]

westcoast, first understand animals and the society that different animals live in and then argue that homosexuality exists amongst them . It doesn't. Even your article mentions that the OBSERVATIONS of homosexuality was noticed in batchelor groups.

I talked about heirachy, dominance, social standing, strength etc in my previous post. You cannot put human emotions into observations on animal behaviour. It doesnt work that way. Sheesh, I can make budgies homo by pairing them, pidgeons, sheep, pigs, matters not......easy to do and easier to reverse. Instinct drives them, not sexual preference. Pop out to a dairy farm and you will see cows mounting cows in a parady of the mating act. Is this lesbianism? No, the cow is not a lesbian, she is simply reacting instictively to the hormones being put out by the cow who is on heat. And yet I have seen this same activity described as an example of homo behaviour in animals in many so called proof that animals are homo posts.

Anyway, I digress, this is off topic.........please feel free to continue this debate in my miscellaneous thread which I have decided is a good place for it after all........needed matt to figure that out for me.......man I must be loosing it:)

[carriew]

LOL. my mom had 3 dogs at one time. 2 males and a female. they would do a train. the 2 males were fixed and the female was not. sweetie would go into heat and one would hump her while the other would hump him. now they were fixed so there was nothing to come of it but it was damn funny!
and I have 2 dogs brothers. they hump each other all the time. they arent even umm like excited or anything they just do it to establish dominance, I think alot of animals have simular behavior.

only worry about who/what is in bed next to you and not about who is in someone elses bedroom.

I dont see a difference animals kids whatever whoever to each his/her own.

My daughter is 6 and I tell you that if she came to me at 12 and told me she liked girls I would love her just the same and I would not change how she was being rasied. and the same thing goes for my son.

[Athena]

Quote by: westcoastdog If she is in a red state, move to a blue state, especially to a city, where gays and lesbians tend to live. Teach her that the world can be cruel and unfair and people are often stupid and bigoted, and teenagers are often the worst. Surround her with friends who accept and love her. Remember that knowledge only goes so far. While she is young and vulnerable, she should be protected from the ugliness of bigots.

Sounds like good advise to me. I think sometimes we stress to much the need to cope, when the best thing we could do is change our environment and find the place that suits us best.

I have a grandson who is having a lot of trouble, and I am tired of the fight of making him different. This isn't a sexual issue, but like some teens he is consumed in depression and will not attend school, and has learned to make himself sick. My first concern right now is his health, and good health means finding that which makes us happy. Our Declaration of Independence declares we have a right to pursue our happiness. Some of us have to be more creative in securing our happiness than others.

I will go with listen to her and help her realize that which will make her the most happy. Being heard and acknowledged are the most valuable things we can have or give each other. Moving to where she may find a social life with accepting people could be an important option. We all need to teach our kids how to get what they want out of live, regardless of their differences, or where they need to live to get that.

[Kite]

If I were ever to have a momentary fit of insanity and become a parent, this is the code I would govern the spawn of my loins by:
1.Before she is at an age where she can make competent decisions for herself (15), I will make most major decisions for her, based on what I think is best for her. However, this does not mean I will disregard any input she has on the subject.
2.After the age of 15, I will let her make her own decisions. If she decides that she is a lesbian, than that is fine with me, because it is HER life to do what she wishes with, not MINE or an extension thereof.
3.I will try to help her cope with the outcome of any decisions she makes, however I will not coddle her, because she must learn to do things for herself. The freedom to make your own decisions comes with the responsibility of dealing with the results of those decisions, good or bad.

Of course, as I am a 17 year old male, I would not have any expertise on these types of things, but thats just my two cents($8.35 Canadian) anyway. :)