The flower girl dilemma

[fushigi]

Here in Beijing, there are lots of poor people. Some work. Some beg. Some run scams. Some just go hungry.

Recently, a new scam has got us all wondering if there's any moral solution. The flower girl scam.

Take a nine year-old girl, and give her a bunch of roses. Put her outside relatively expensive restaurants and hotels where there are no police, and make her work at night. Then tell her not to let anybody pass her until they buy a rose. Anybody.

She stands in front of you and won't move. She grabs your arm. She holds onto your leg and rides it while you walk down the sidewalk. The whole time she yells in a shrill voice, "lian kuai! Lian kuai!" (two RMB, 25 cents).

Now you're embarrassed. You're wearing your nice clothes. The people you went to dinner with are uncomfortable. You could give her the money and she'd leave you alone. But that would justify the scam. You could run away, but that makes you look like a sissy, running away from a little girl. Plus, then she'll only pester your friends. You could hit her, but then you look like a bully.

This is a real dilemma. Help me solve it!

[tinybear]

Reminds me of the time I was in Cambodia. There was this little girl; no more than 4 years old, with ragged clothes, no shoes and a pitiful face. She comes to you with some goods for sale. I thought I'd give her one USD and say never mind about the goods; I don't want any. I mean, what's the harm, right? Whoa! No sooner had I done that, hordes of children suddenly appeared with goods for sale! Hey, I didn't have time to think. I ran. That's my solution: RUN!!

[fushigi]

Their behavior makes sense to me. GDP per capita in Cambodia's $300US. You gave her the equivalent of one day's wages - what - the equivalent of $100US to us? Hell, I'd chase after a little Asian girl for that cash.

But for a guy, that makes you look like a big pussy. I still say it's a philosophically, morally unsolvable problem.

[Milton Bradley]

You know the move a tall person can use to keep a shorter persom from hitting them? The old "stiff arm them in the head so they cannot reach you" routine. That is the tactic I would use.


Anybody willing to put you into that position deserves little respect for thier feelings. They obviously never considered yours.

[fushigi]

She's nine years old! She's barely a person. That's the problem.

Also, you know her parents or master or whoever is beating them if they don't sell enough roses, adds another dimension to the problem.

[rcne]

Why aren't the police or local establishment's security forces there. It may be a case of corruption (they allow it - because they are getting a reward for allowing it)

I'd tell the establishment's owners that I will not be back to frequent his establishment if I can expect to be harassed upon leaving.

PS - it is sad for the poor young ones, but they are being used. I don't think the little girl gets anything for her efforts.

[Autolykos]

Here in Beijing, there are lots of poor people. Some work. Some beg. Some run scams. Some just go hungry.

Recently, a new scam has got us all wondering if there's any moral solution. The flower girl scam.

Take a nine year-old girl, and give her a bunch of roses. Put her outside relatively expensive restaurants and hotels where there are no police, and make her work at night. Then tell her not to let anybody pass her until they buy a rose. Anybody.

She stands in front of you and won't move. She grabs your arm. She holds onto your leg and rides it while you walk down the sidewalk. The whole time she yells in a shrill voice, "lian kuai! Lian kuai!" (two RMB, 25 cents).

Now you're embarrassed. You're wearing your nice clothes. The people you went to dinner with are uncomfortable. You could give her the money and she'd leave you alone. But that would justify the scam. You could run away, but that makes you look like a sissy, running away from a little girl. Plus, then she'll only pester your friends. You could hit her, but then you look like a bully.

This is a real dilemma. Help me solve it!

The situation is self-contradictory for the girl committing the scam. Since she is only one person, she cannot prevent all others from passing by her without buying roses. She must choose one person at a time. While she is preventing that one person from passing by without buying a rose, other people at the restaurant are free to do so.

Of course, that's not really the point. The point is for her to make money through embarrassment and guilt on the part of her target. The solution to the alleged dilemma depends on what one's preferences are. If he prefers to not endorse the scam, then it follows that acting on that preference would include doing whatever it takes to not buy a rose, including physically harming the girl. On the other hand, if he prefers something else more, perhaps simply not harming the girl, he will endorse the scam and buy a rose.

Most people, I imagine, would endorse the scam, because they would perceive the cost of doing so (25 cents) to be less than the cost of not doing so (uncomfortable friends, looking like a sissy, looking like a bully, and/or others). The real scam would be if the girl does not make any money for herself and never sees the fruits of her labor. However, I imagine that most girls taking part in such a thing would not do so for long (unless forced to, which is an even greater wrong, but outside the scope of this thread).

It's important to note that this situation is really no different from anyone walking up to you on the street and begging for money. The same apparent dilemma exists there. However, I do not think that a dilemma exists in terms of absolute morality. It is really just a matter of one's preferences.

- Rob

[Clarence]

$.25 for a rose? sounds like a deal. Never know when you'll need one of those. You could buy all the roses she has, and tell her to deliver them somewhere for you and then meet her there and steal her and bring her to america and employ her at your lemonade stand. Or you can tell her that the host of the restaurant is in need of a rose and send her inside. Or you can try to find out who her boss is and start a Steven Segal-like adventure through the rose pedalling underground. Or you could get some plant killer and try to sell it to the girl for $.25 as rudely as she peddles her wares.

I'm guessing that she doesn't keep the money like rnce says. Aside from that, this is kind of a class issue. If she was smart, she would give away the roses and have a donation cup. Someone like myself would probably make it worth her while. I like to give away flowers.

[tman_ndsu08]

You could run away, but that makes you look like a sissy, running away from a little girl.

One of my favorite scenes from Pulp Fiction is when Marcellus talks to Butch about pride.


Listen, pride only fucks with you. It never helps you.


Who gives a god damn if people think you're sissy? Fuck the girl and fuck anyone who thinks you're a sissy.

Plus, then she'll only pester your friends.

Your friends should be running with you.

You could hit her, but then you look like a bully.

I would not hit her.

But I will say this, no one is above an ass beatin'.

[tman_ndsu08]

She's nine years old! She's barely a person. That's the problem.

Also, you know her parents or master or whoever is beating them if they don't sell enough roses, adds another dimension to the problem.

She could run away or fight back.

Don't let pity fuck with you either.

[The Fyrdman]

For fuck's sake it's not like it breaks the bank, buy the roses. If your going to a resteraunt your likely with your partner, or if not go to a bar after and get talking to a bird, then pull it out of your sleeve. Cheesey, but it worked for me with an orchid.

[Technosoul]

Here in Beijing, there are lots of poor people. Some work. Some beg. Some run scams. Some just go hungry.

Recently, a new scam has got us all wondering if there's any moral solution. The flower girl scam.

Take a nine year-old girl, and give her a bunch of roses. Put her outside relatively expensive restaurants and hotels where there are no police, and make her work at night. Then tell her not to let anybody pass her until they buy a rose. Anybody.

She stands in front of you and won't move. She grabs your arm. She holds onto your leg and rides it while you walk down the sidewalk. The whole time she yells in a shrill voice, "lian kuai! Lian kuai!" (two RMB, 25 cents).

Now you're embarrassed. You're wearing your nice clothes. The people you went to dinner with are uncomfortable. You could give her the money and she'd leave you alone. But that would justify the scam. You could run away, but that makes you look like a sissy, running away from a little girl. Plus, then she'll only pester your friends. You could hit her, but then you look like a bully.

This is a real dilemma. Help me solve it!

I cannot really afford to give money to others because it would take food off the table for our family so I discovered a workable plan. Use a card for money - a bank card or a credit card - and if they ask just say "I only have a credit card and no change". If they think your kidding show them your empty wallet or and pants pockets.

Or go prepared with a coin to give her. Why not? Here you are eating at an expensive place in expensive clothing while little children are in hungar? Where is your heart?
Where is your sense of justice and balance?

Shame on you,.