The Kalam Cosmological Argument

[LetThereBe]

I haven't read anything that states for a fact that we know this to be impossible. Science is always limited to our current understanding. It does not pretend to know that for which there is no evidence. We may never have witnessed such a thing, our best understanding currently may say that such a thing is unlikely or in violation of science as we now understand it, but it does not state absolutely that such a thing is impossible. All we know is that it would be inconsistant with our current scientific knowledge.

Indeed. What you say is absolutely true. But then it becomes a belief despite the evidence, something I find is widely criticized here. You are correct in saying that the laws of thermodynamics might not be valid. That is an assumption I have made during my arguments. However, I think it is a very safe conclusion, since every piece of data ever collected supports it. Especially the second: that entropy is irreversible. Keep in mind in order for the universe to be infinitely old, the laws of thermodynamics would not just have been violated at some conception of the universe way back when, back when the universe may have behaived in strange ways due to all matter/energy being in one very small space. Instead, these laws would have to be violated for an infinite amount of time. Quite a violation of the pattern today, yet still remotely possible.

[LetThereBe]

Moving through dimensions isn't all that hard, really. Grab the nearest black hole and go for a ride through time. Nope, no cause. Just coming into being, continuously, forever. We haven't even discovered all of the dimensions that exist in the universe. Many scientists think some 16 dimensions in all exist. It's more confusing than we think out there, hence all the entropy I suppose.

Your black hole argument is poor. We are not talking about time, we are talking about alternate dimensions of space, not time, in which all of these extra hidden galaxies could be. So you still have no method of traversing extra dimensions, and even if it could all such universes would be moving toward entropy, and if these other universes come into being that implies that at one point so did ours, and if you are saying the universes are just so far away then they would be too far away to imput any matter/energy into our system in the first place.

"Nope, no cause. Just coming into being, continuously, forever."

Thats a powerful statement of faith, and I'm fine with that. However, by your above statement that these universes are "coming into being infinitely, forever" shows that you DO believe that the universe had a beginning. Hence you agree with #1. of the Kalam argument. It seems your point of digression then is #2, you do not believe everything that came into being had a cause. It would be much easier if you just said as much.

[Dirty Name]

What if the entire universe is infinite with infinite big bangs and expansions of matter throughout infinite time?

With all that infinite stuff going on, it seems highly improbable that the infinite combinations of matter, dark matter, and/or anti-matter, given infinite time, would not have already created a super-being far more powerful than us humans - something we might regard as almost God-like..

I mean, life on Earth has only existed for what, a few hundred billion years? That's merely a snap of my fingers compared to infinite time. Surely over infinite time, with infinite universes, infinite planets, infinite combinations of infinite forms of matter, some super-powerful life form would have evolved from somewhere a gadzillion billion googolillion bazillion million years ago. A life form that would have evolved from infinity and gained infinite powers and knowledge by now...in fact SHOULD have by now already possessed what we might consider to be God-like powers with the ability to manipulate our physical world in ways we can't possibly imagine.

Naw...there's no God. There couldn't be. The universe is finite. Made only of rocks and elements on our periodic tables and charts. Beyond the universe, there is just an edge, where nothing, not even void, exist. Sort of like how we used to think the world was flat. The universe has an edge just like the old, flat earth. And so that's why there couldn't be a God, because the universe is finite.

Yeah. Sure.

[LetThereBe]

With all that infinite stuff going on, it seems highly improbable that the infinite combinations of matter, dark matter, and/or anti-matter, given infinite time, would not have already created a super-being far more powerful than us humans - something we might regard as almost God-like..

I mean, life on Earth has only existed for what, a few hundred billion years? That's merely a snap of my fingers compared to infinite time. Surely over infinite time, with infinite universes, infinite planets, infinite combinations of infinite forms of matter, some super-powerful life form would have evolved from somewhere a gadzillion billion googolillion bazillion million years ago. A life form that would have evolved from infinity and gained infinite powers and knowledge by now...in fact SHOULD have by now already possessed what we might consider to be God-like powers with the ability to manipulate our physical world in ways we can't possibly imagine.

Naw...there's no God. There couldn't be. The universe is finite. Made only of rocks and elements on our periodic tables and charts. Beyond the universe, there is just an edge, where nothing, not even void, exist. Sort of like how we used to think the world was flat. The universe has an edge just like the old, flat earth. And so that's why there couldn't be a God, because the universe is finite.

Yeah. Sure.

What a strange argument! Generally, the theists argue for a finite universe, and only athiests argue otherwise.

[Jack]

What you say is absolutely true

I have never knowingly or intentionally said anything that could even remotely be considered "absolutely true". That would require knowledge I don't believe exists.

But thanks for the kind thoughts. :)

[Athena]

http://www.web-books.com/GoodPost/Ar...riginOfGod.htm

If this link doesn't work, google string theory creation. It is a string theory explanation of the spiritual reality of God. If we use science to understand God, we have a chance of making so valuable discoveries.

[Jack]

If we use science to understand God

Let's start on a smaller scale. Let's use science to understand the Loch Ness Monster. The results will be the same.

[Dirty Name]

What a strange argument! Generally, the theists argue for a finite universe, and only athiests argue otherwise.

LOL. Well, the entire concept of infinity makes the notion that there could be a first time that Earth and humans existed a bit of a stretch. I mean, after all, given infinite time backward into infinity, that would mean that there were infinite Earths in existence, infinite human races inventing infinite technology. There would also be infinite variation in living beings on other planets, and infinite combinations of technolgy. Given these infinite possibilities, it only makes sense that a superbeing would have "evolved" over this infinite period - one that we would likely describe as God-like.

You see, no matter which way these athiests and agnostics try to go, they always bump into the concept of God. I find it rather amusing. It's the only logical conclusion we can make. Either the universe is infinite, meaning that there are infinite opportunities for a Superbeing to exist and govern our world, OR the universe is finite, meaning it had a beginning, a first cause. And we all know that a first cause cannot cause itself, meaning that first cause is infinite in nature. The very concept of infinity implies perfection, and God-like qualities.

A couple of quotes from God and Jesus, to illustrate the point:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End."

"I am the Great I AM."

[rez]

I will help the theists on this..


If the universe always existed and is infinite, what does that mean?
Is the universe a giant human playground in which humans can achieve and do whatever they please? Does human evolution have a limit? Are there boundries to the universe?

If these boundries do exist, shouldn't humans be able to question how to go beyond such boundries?

My point is if humans ever do reach a point where the universe is actually finite and contained, the next problem would be how to go beyond such a boundry. If humans discover that there is no possible way to figure out what is beyond the boundry, then it would be logical to think THERE MUST BE SOMETHING BEYOND THIS FINITE UNIVERSE!


And even if there is something that created this universe it does not mean humans are capable of exploring further realities. And even if humans are able to explore further it only leads to "what created this reality".

It seems as though the universe is infinite with boundries that humans have to question and explain, however never reaching a definate point!


There is something much more complex going on in human consciousness that has nothing to do with cause and effect.

Sometimes as a human I feel wrapped up in a thick blanket of ignorance. I feel like there is so much crazy shit going on without me. However, I must take what I have and just play the game of life, even if its boring.

[Athena]

LOL. Well, the entire concept of infinity makes the notion that there could be a first time that Earth and humans existed a bit of a stretch. I mean, after all, given infinite time backward into infinity, that would mean that there were infinite Earths in existence, infinite human races inventing infinite technology. There would also be infinite variation in living beings on other planets, and infinite combinations of technolgy. Given these infinite possibilities, it only makes sense that a superbeing would have "evolved" over this infinite period - one that we would likely describe as God-like.

You see, no matter which way these athiests and agnostics try to go, they always bump into the concept of God. I find it rather amusing. It's the only logical conclusion we can make. Either the universe is infinite, meaning that there are infinite opportunities for a Superbeing to exist and govern our world, OR the universe is finite, meaning it had a beginning, a first cause. And we all know that a first cause cannot cause itself, meaning that first cause is infinite in nature. The very concept of infinity implies perfection, and God-like qualities.

A couple of quotes from God and Jesus, to illustrate the point:

"I am the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End."

"I am the Great I AM."

Hum (?) I don't reason things the same way. I like what you first said about a God evolving from creation. I think there is a symbiotic relationship between God and manifestation.

I don't think a God is necessary to get things going. I poured some melted imitation butter on my popcorn last night and if moved in a strange way. I am not God, and I don't think God energy was moving the popcorn. I think the laws of physics can result in movement that results in order, without God. I like string theory- that begins with chaos and becomes order. It happens just because that is how physics works.

Of course we could go with the Mayan Factor, and in that case the whole universe is a living organism that takes its directions from a bean eminating from the center of the universe. Our sun is the receiver of that beam and relays messages to earth. Like if you want a God controller, you need some explanation of how this God controller works don't you?

"I am the Alpha and the Omega. The Beginning and the End." is a state of mind. Anyone can transcend and expereince this state of mind.

[Athena]

I will help the theists on this..


If the universe always existed and is infinite, what does that mean?
Is the universe a giant human playground in which humans can achieve and do whatever they please? Does human evolution have a limit? Are there boundries to the universe?

If these boundries do exist, shouldn't humans be able to question how to go beyond such boundries?

My point is if humans ever do reach a point where the universe is actually finite and contained, the next problem would be how to go beyond such a boundry. If humans discover that there is no possible way to figure out what is beyond the boundry, then it would be logical to think THERE MUST BE SOMETHING BEYOND THIS FINITE UNIVERSE!


And even if there is something that created this universe it does not mean humans are capable of exploring further realities. And even if humans are able to explore further it only leads to "what created this reality".

It seems as though the universe is infinite with boundries that humans have to question and explain, however never reaching a definate point!


There is something much more complex going on in human consciousness that has nothing to do with cause and effect.

Sometimes as a human I feel wrapped up in a thick blanket of ignorance. I feel like there is so much crazy shit going on without me. However, I must take what I have and just play the game of life, even if its boring.

How about this? The universe is infinite, but matter is not. The planets and stars are what happens in manifested reality, but manifested reality is not the whole of the universe.
I believe matter is finite. Hum (?) what if there were nothing to reflect light back to the source? What if the universe is symbiotic?

[LetThereBe]

Hmmm, this is turning a bit away from the Kalam argument and turning into a purely theist vs atheist view, which is not what I had intended.

So far from what I can tell, there is a consensus that these are the possibilites:

1. The universe as we know it is finite.
2. The universe as we know it is finite, and there are many other finite universes.
3. The universe as we know it is finite, but it is a part of a much greater, infinite universe.
4. The universe is infinite, and the laws of thermodynamics did not operate as we currently understand them for an infinite amount of time.

Does anyone disagree with these four? Can any of these be ruled out? Are there any more that need added?