What will it take to prove religion?

[RickSp]

I am getting into this discussion late but here goes.

There are two answers to the question:

The first is that I know that God exists. He/she exists in the hearts and minds of those who believe in him/her/it. The idea of God fills a deep-seated psychological need of a mortal yet thinking creature coping with an apparently infinite universe. God exists, whether as an idea, a yearning or need, call it what you will. Whether this is a good or bad thing is open to debate. There is obviously a need on some psychic level for religion if only evidenced by the amount and variety of it across the world and throughout history.

What would it take for me to believe that God exists in a physical sense? Some physical evidence would be nice. It might be fine for theist to believe that a being which created all that is, everything, has chosen to play hide and seek with us, to hide completely and thoroughly, but that seems an awfully thin framework on which to build an entire ontology, not to mention all the varied dogmas and doctrines.

Failing physical evidence, a simple logical argument proving the existence of such a creature. The theists have tried this for a few milenia and no one has come up with a convincing argument so far. I doubt anyone has a new twist on the very old debates. And please do not repeat the old "everything can't come from chance nonsense." The physical world with or without a Supreme being relies very little on chance events.

I'll tell you what won't convince me - arguments based on faith or feeling, the sort that basically boil down to, "well, I believe and so should you." You might see God in everything around you but I am not going to swallow your religion based on that any more that I would if an odd looking kid walked up saying "I see dead people." I did like the move, nevertheless.

[Starboy]

As far as my claim that the aid my religion gave is a positive effect, how can you justify calling it ludicrus? Just because other groups have given aid doesn't remove the good that my church did. My church has always been one of the first groups to respond to such crises. This is a positive effect of my religion. My religion encourages families that saty together and discourage divorce or separation. Divorce often causes the couple involved to severely dislike each other even if kids are involved. And what happens to kids when they see that their parents hate each other? Encouraging families to remain together has positive effects.There are positive effects all over the place. How many more should I name?

And these are benefits that your religion shares with any other group of people who come together to help each other. There is nothing supernatural about it. There is no god involved, no magic, no hocus pocus. It is just natural human social behavior that has been demonstrated even in pre-historic archeological sites.

Starboy

[Flip Jackson]

Thanks for the comments, Rick. I don't intend to try to convince anyone with my feelings or whatever, even though they have had some effect on my beliefs. And the chance thing is just a personal quirk of mine, not something I really expect any one else to believe.

The best logical argument for God came from Socrates, I think. Could have been someone else from that time period, can't remember now. There were a number of points such as "the first mover," but I think a lot of people discredit his arguments now.

What kind of physical evidence? Would you have to see God? Or what would God have too do to convince you that the physical occurence was actually from Him? Kind of tough to actually give physical evidence of God.

Starboy, the comment was made that no positive effects come from religion .I argued that point by giving examples of positive effects. Just because other various organizations do similar things doesn't mean the good done by my church doesn't count. What kind of scale do you use? One in which religion is always lacking, even when there is reason to think otherwise?

And how many organizations allow for 100% of donations to be given to the cause? How many organizations encourage charity, family bonds, excercise and good health, time management, service, and caring for people in general? So much good comes from my church, but it is thrown out just because other collections of people do one or two of the things my church does? What good would my religion have to do to be thought of as having positive effects? You give no room for a religion to be succesful in any way.

[RickSp]

The best logical argument for God came from Socrates, I think. Could have been someone else from that time period, can't remember now. There were a number of points such as "the first mover," but I think a lot of people discredit his arguments now.

What kind of physical evidence? Would you have to see God? Or what would God have too do to convince you that the physical occurence was actually from Him? Kind of tough to actually give physical evidence of God.

The Cosmological Argument also referred to as the Argument from First Cause is satisfying, if one is a believer, but not sufficient. If there was a creation then there must have been a creator. The problem is that there is no absolute requirement for a "God" in the process. If one chooses to believe that God initiated the Big Bang, fine, but there is no compelling reason that it be so. One might claim that Einsteinian space-time or quantum theory also requires an element of faith but at least they promise the prospect of being proven or disproven.

In some respects this relates to physical evidence. Virtually all Christian dogma speaks of a "personal" God, a caring, paternal God, yet nowhere in this vast universe does there seem to be any evidence of the existence of this caring, "personal" God that is supposed to have a plan for all our lives.

The Cosmological argument falls apart because there is no essential need for a "God" in the creation of all things and, at least for me, the idea of a personal God also falls apart because there is no sign of God in the cosmos. If indeed my prayers are supposed to be both heard and answered in the physical world, why is there no other evidence out there? I know that Pat Robertson claims that his prayers caused a hurrican to change course. Then again I consider Pat to be a better argument for scepticism than belief.

[Starboy]

Starboy, the comment was made that no positive effects come from religion .I argued that point by giving examples of positive effects. Just because other various organizations do similar things doesn't mean the good done by my church doesn't count.

Agreed. All religions as well as other kinds of societies and organizations have worked to help their fellow man. I would certainly give religion its due in that regard.

What kind of scale do you use? One in which religion is always lacking, even when there is reason to think otherwise?

I make a distinction between supernatural vs. natural religion. I do not care much for supernatural religion even though it has a benefit because by promoting supernaturalism it forces its adherents to be dishonest. No matter how beneficial it may be in other areas any institution that promotes or directs people to ignore reality and to pretend that the supernatural is the preferred explanation of reality as a matter of institutional policy is not something that any society needs. Fundamentalism is the direct result of such activity.

And how many organizations allow for 100% of donations to be given to the cause? How many organizations encourage charity, family bonds, excercise and good health, time management, service, and caring for people in general? So much good comes from my church, but it is thrown out just because other collections of people do one or two of the things my church does? What good would my religion have to do to be thought of as having positive effects? You give no room for a religion to be succesful in any way.

The vast majority of people are supernatural religious so most of these kinds of organizations reflect their religious views. But there are secular organizations that also help people. But it is not a fair comparison because atheists comprise at most 2% of the general population. Even so, they do contribute a disproportionate share to society as a whole. Also I would point out that the US government was founded primarily by Freemasons who though not atheist they were deists. They were willing to give their lives for found this country from which we all benefit.

Starboy

[SoccerfreakAB2]

i would like to debate a little on this one part. first off, the Bible was not written 400 years after the last portion happened, only compiled. it was written over the period of over 4000 years by over thirty people who could not talk to eachother. given this fact, the chances of it contradicting itself are very high, however, it has surpassed all the odds and made no contradictions in itself, while we have many books written in the timespan of only 3 years by only one author that contradict themselves.
also, did you know that if you took away religion, then the theory of evolution would go with it, as darwin was a theist before he invented the idea of evolution and natural selection. in fact he studied the origins of this earth originally to prove the creationist theory correct, then he got into the wrong crowd and became the creator of evolution, the rest is history. so could you explain, with those facts, would we even be having the big debate of creationism versus evolutionism here on this website, without religion?

haha, you just completely debated your own points. Over 4000 years, and with over 30 authors, you're telling me that there's no contradictions. Please read these over:

http://www.infidels.org/library/mode...adictions.html

or these:

http://www.atheists.org/christianity...adictions.html

Obviously Darwin would not have been the first one to find that evolution was the beginning to the real answer. If there were no religion, it would have been found out earlier, hell, maybe later. Who knows? Eventually, when technology found its way with radiometric dating and the likes, evolution would show through as the answer for how humans became humans.

[Flip Jackson]

Soccer, I think those are poor sites for Biblical contradictions. Contradictions do exist, but many of them that I read over in those sites could be easily explained. I may post some of them later, but it is late, and I don't feel like finding them right now.

I don't believe the Bible is completely without error. Surely there have been mistranslations, errors during transcription before presses existed, and parts taken out by different church athorities.

Just though I'd throw that out there.

[dthmstr254]

i would like to add some physical evidence that showed back on the date of september 11, 2000. anyone want to know where God was while Bin Laden's henchmen were flying boeings into the WTC?
he was in the streets creating traffic jams, the subways, creating power shorts that made the subway have to delay its departure time, in a flight that was above pennsylvania, helping the passengers work up the courage to rehijack the plane from the hijackers, in the towers themselves helping the firefighters and police officers evacuate the buildings, and he was working in the heart of every American that cared to turn their telivision on. in the end, for a monday, those towers were very empty compared to how they usually were. if you need any more physical evidence, then you need to go take a morning hike, because "the heavens declare the glory of God!" as i write this could those of you who agree with me just "hold my mule while i shout!"

[dthmstr254]

deleted for double post

[dthmstr254]

Soccer, I think those are poor sites for Biblical contradictions. Contradictions do exist, but many of them that I read over in those sites could be easily explained. I may post some of them later, but it is late, and I don't feel like finding them right now.

I don't believe the Bible is completely without error. Surely there have been mistranslations, errors during transcription before presses existed, and parts taken out by different church athorities.

Just though I'd throw that out there.

you might post later but i will disprove the first one here and now.
1.) "God good to all, or just some?"
first let us put the verses in context:
Psalm 145
1 I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.

2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.

3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.

4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.

5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.

6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.

7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.

8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.

9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.

10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.

11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;

12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.

13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.

14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.

15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.

16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.

17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.

18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.

19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.

20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.

21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever.

Jeremiah 13
1Thus saith the LORD unto me, Go and get thee a linen girdle, and put it upon thy loins, and put it not in water.

2So I got a girdle according to the word of the LORD, and put it on my loins.

3And the word of the LORD came unto me the second time, saying,

4Take the girdle that thou hast got, which is upon thy loins, and arise, go to Euphrates, and hide it there in a hole of the rock.

5So I went, and hid it by Euphrates, as the LORD commanded me.

6And it came to pass after many days, that the LORD said unto me, Arise, go to Euphrates, and take the girdle from thence, which I commanded thee to hide there.

7Then I went to Euphrates, and digged, and took the girdle from the place where I had hid it: and, behold, the girdle was marred, it was profitable for nothing.

8Then the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,

9Thus saith the LORD, After this manner will I mar the pride of Judah, and the great pride of Jerusalem.

10This evil people, which refuse to hear my words, which walk in the imagination of their heart, and walk after other gods, to serve them, and to worship them, shall even be as this girdle, which is good for nothing.

11For as the girdle cleaveth to the loins of a man, so have I caused to cleave unto me the whole house of Israel and the whole house of Judah, saith the LORD; that they might be unto me for a people, and for a name, and for a praise, and for a glory: but they would not hear.

12Therefore thou shalt speak unto them this word; Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Every bottle shall be filled with wine: and they shall say unto thee, Do we not certainly know that every bottle shall be filled with wine?

13Then shalt thou say unto them, Thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will fill all the inhabitants of this land, even the kings that sit upon David's throne, and the priests, and the prophets, and all the inhabitants of Jerusalem, with drunkenness.

14And I will dash them one against another, even the fathers and the sons together, saith the LORD: I will not pity, nor spare, nor have mercy, but destroy them.

15Hear ye, and give ear; be not proud: for the LORD hath spoken.

16Give glory to the LORD your God, before he cause darkness, and before your feet stumble upon the dark mountains, and, while ye look for light, he turn it into the shadow of death, and make it gross darkness.

17But if ye will not hear it, my soul shall weep in secret places for your pride; and mine eye shall weep sore, and run down with tears, because the LORD's flock is carried away captive.

18Say unto the king and to the queen, Humble yourselves, sit down: for your principalities shall come down, even the crown of your glory.

19The cities of the south shall be shut up, and none shall open them: Judah shall be carried away captive all of it, it shall be wholly carried away captive.

20Lift up your eyes, and behold them that come from the north: where is the flock that was given thee, thy beautiful flock?

21What wilt thou say when he shall punish thee? for thou hast taught them to be captains, and as chief over thee: shall not sorrows take thee, as a woman in travail?

22And if thou say in thine heart, Wherefore come these things upon me? For the greatness of thine iniquity are thy skirts discovered, and thy heels made bare.

23Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

24Therefore will I scatter them as the stubble that passeth away by the wind of the wilderness.

25This is thy lot, the portion of thy measures from me, saith the LORD; because thou hast forgotten me, and trusted in falsehood.

26Therefore will I discover thy skirts upon thy face, that thy shame may appear.

27I have seen thine adulteries, and thy neighings, the lewdness of thy whoredom, and thine abominations on the hills in the fields. Woe unto thee, O Jerusalem! wilt thou not be made clean? when shall it once be?

if you would care to read the emboldened verses, you would understand, but if you want me to explain, then you had better be ready for a long sermon. basically i am just saying that he will punish the wicked in their time, for he is a holy God, but he has given them plenty of fair warning at this time and they still persecuted jeremiah and the rest of israel.

[RickSp]

dthmstr254, you are good at preaching to the choir.

Of course, the choir is already convinced, so you might want to save your key strokes. Spouting verse is a bit beside the point.

And I was very close to ground zero on 9/11 and I didn't see any sign of God or gods. Were you there?

[dthmstr254]

dthmstr254, you are good at preaching to the choir.

Of course, the choir is already convinced, so you might want to save your key strokes. Spouting verse is a bit beside the point.

And I was very close to ground zero on 9/11 and I didn't see any sign of God or gods. Were you there?

no, but think of how many people had appointments at the tower in the morning, but were late to it. there should have been more than 10,000 people in those towers, the death toll was only 2752, updated on october 29, 2003 those people werent there either now were they??? how many "coincidences" need to happen at the same time to prove to you that God exists. i have seen far too many miracles to believe in any such thing as chance. my friend, a man by the name of Sam Watson, had lung cancer so bad they gave him a month to live, now 7 months later they are saying that the cancer is gone without a trace. another friend of mine has multiple sclerosis, and was given a sentance of 2 years to live at the age of 24. she is now 37 and going on 38 in a month, and every time you ask her how she is doing she always answers with a smile and the words "Blessed by God." my own grandfather, fighting through heart problem after heart problem, died only last year when he had fnished everything he needed to, with not a debt to his name.
even recently, with the Katrina incident, i have heard stories of heroism in which the heroes were people with assurance of salvation and determination of heart. my roommates mother carried his grandmother up to the second story in twelve foot, high current waters. how many miracles do you need for it to be proved that God exists.
i have also heard that i am dealing in hatred on my posts. i would not be posting if i hated the people here, i laugh at some of the statements on this website and cry at others, but i still love the people with the christian love quoted in the passage below from Matthew 5:
44But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

45That ye may be the children of your Father which is in heaven: for he maketh his sun to rise on the evil and on the good, and sendeth rain on the just and on the unjust.

46For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?

i have heard of many evil people that were blessed in ways. some are mentioned in the Bible, like Pharaoh when he would not approach Abram's (Abraham's) wife. i have also seen people that were devout christians go through some horrible storms, i myself have lost several family members, including my own brother, and yet i say as Job said, "the Lord giveth, He taketh away, blessed be the name of the Lord!"