Good Governance: Which Country Has the Best Government?

[barts]

Well then expect to be marginalized and excluded from serious debates (rightfully so). Anyone who thinks America is more corrupt then North Korea, Zimbabwe and Iraq, does not deserve to be taken seriously.

You seem to think corruption indexing corporations are stupid enough to rate countries by the countries own corrupt laws? As if they will say "Oh Zimbabwa legalizes corruption? Well thats okay then". They go of objective standards, which can not be contravened by the rulers of America or Zimbabwe or any country.

Expenditures and harm done due to the influences of US corruption affect far more people than the corruption in the states you mention.

You're measuring corruption with a poor metric. If US was not a corrupt nation, deaths due to military action, wars on drugs, climate change, environmental destruction (the list is long) would be greatly reduced. Far more than if the countries you mention became corruption free.

[barts]

An observation. It seems to me that if my American friends in fact believed my assertions about US corruption did not have any merit whatsoever and where patently ridiculous there would be little or no comment. Would you comment if I claimed that the United States was governed by Santa Claus and defended by Unicorns? I doubt it.

You're upset and defensive, I submit, because you are uncomfortable with truth of my observations.

[barts]

And don't say you weren't warned,



Eisenhower's Farewell Address to the Nation

[Angry Citizen]

Being the largest economy in the world, the money spent and policies enacted determined by corruption far exceed that of any other country. Ipso facto, the US is the most corrupt.

That.. is.. *snort*

When did socialists start measuring worth by the amount of money a society possesses?

Most US politicians are wholly controlled by money. There are few policies and government expenditures in the US that are not overtly influenced or decided by monied interests. This is a matter of record.

Find me these records. Frankly I'm rather doubtful Obama instituted the PPACA based solely or even primarily on moneyed interests.

US politicians have learned that it's not politically or economically necessary to ban Wikipedia. The media is so controlled by a few major corporations that the few people who actually apprise themselves of the facts are too few to matter.

Again, it is better than places like Russia with Russia Today (aka 21st century Pravda).

Because of media concentration, US politicians and corporations know that imprisoning artists isn't necessary. They can merely deprive them access to media. Dixie Chicks.

Again, it is more evil to imprison artists than to "deprive them access to media" - whatever that means. Everyone's heard of the Dixie Chicks. Seems they were given access to quite a bit of media. Furthermore, the Dixie Chicks is still making music and isn't facing months, perhaps years in jail. Is Pussy Riot?

Really? And, George Bush is what?

... A democratically elected former leader of ours whose son also became democratically elected?

The US is overtly influenced by religious interests not only in government but also the military.

Religious interests, yes, but Americans are a religious people. I'd counter that it's democracy, not theocracy.

Really? Most of the prisoners at Guantanamo were guilty of nothing more than being in the wrong place.

None of whom were Americans, and of which there were very few. Certainly nowhere near China, don't you agree?

As well, the US Justice system is now, in fact, based on the notion of "guilty until proven innocent".

So it would seem, considering your utterly baseless charges.

The battle against the drug cartels is due to the US's War on Drugs which is rife with corruption.

Yes, because the Mexicans have no say in the matter. It's all the US's fault.

Economic mobility and inequality are both worsening in the US and improving in places like Brazil.

But both are still drastically worse than ours in all but European nations and a select few Asian economies - and hint, China ain't one of them.

An observation. It seems to me that if my American friends in fact believed my assertions about US corruption did not have any merit whatsoever and where patently ridiculous there would be little or no comment. Would you comment if I claimed that the United States was governed by Santa Claus and defended by Unicorns? I doubt it.

You're upset and defensive, I submit, because you are uncomfortable with truth of my observations.

barts.

My man.

Your observational skills need refining.

[barts]

Again, it is better than places like Russia with Russia Today (aka 21st century Pravda).

To me it's amusing that when some Americans are caught out in the truth that the US is not the country of their grade school and Hollywood mythologies, they default to notions like the US is not as bad as Russia, North Korea, or Mexico. That's quite a standard you have there.

If you still remain unaware of the corrupting influence of money on US politicians and public policy, it can only be due to a deliberate refusal to confront the truth about the US political system.

You'll be better able to rebut my assertions when you've done some basic research about the corrupting role of money in US politics. It's clear from your statements that you're not well informed about how US public policy is influenced. To help you, I took a few minutes to find a primer that might get you started in becoming better informed. Try reading Lawrence Lessig on How Money Corrupts Congress - and How to Stop It. It might be a good start.

[Angry Citizen]

To me it's amusing that when some Americans are caught out in the truth that the US is not the country of their grade school and Hollywood mythologies, they default to notions like the US is not as bad as Russia, North Korea, or Mexico. That's quite a standard you have there.

Allow me to quote the relevant passages from our previous posts.

You claim the US is THE MOST CORRUPT NATION ON THE PLANET EARTH:

I submit that the US is the most corrupt country in the world.

I claim they're not:

I never defended any of these, but as indefensible as those qualities of America are, your statement that America is the most corrupt country in the world - exceeding Mexico, Russia, Belarus, Iran, North Korea, China, Nigeria, Argentina, Brazil, and the Philippines - is even less plausible.

This is infantile, and I'm shocked it's coming from you. You were the one who claimed the US is the MOST CORRUPT NATION ON EARTH, and when I retort by saying we have a lot of problems that first world nations generally lack, you claim my standards of a good government are Russia, Mexico, and North Korea. Did it really escape you that I was rebutting your claim that the US is the MOST CORRUPT NATION ON EARTH while simultaneously admitting that the US is not the "country of [my] grade school and Hollywood mythology"?

Disgusting. This is as bad as the fervor over "you didn't build that". How can anyone have a productive debate with the likes of you when you make such ridiculous charges and completely ignore the point I'm making?

[barts]

Did it really escape you that I was rebutting your claim that the US is the MOST CORRUPT NATION ON EARTH while simultaneously admitting that the US is not the "country of [my] grade school and Hollywood mythology"?

So, we have some common ground about American mythology, and all you're quibbling about is how I'm ranking the US. How quaint.

Please, review my previous and earlier posts for the basis of my assertion that the US is the most corrupt nation on earth. Apart from merely dropping the names of other nations, you've offered no substantive rebuttal to my assertion. The best, it seems, you can offer is of the order that the Dixie Chicks got off better than Pussy Riot. So, I wonder what do you make of the US's treatment of Tim DeChristopher?

Sure, it's unlikely you won't have to pay a bribe to get a building permit in the US, but you will have to make a political donation if you want it to go smoothly. What's the difference? The difference is the former is technically illegal and the latter is not technically illegal. That concept applies throughout the US political economy.

Almost every aspect of US life has been distorted by political corruption, making the US the most politically corrupt nation on earth. If not for political corruption, the Great Recession of 2008 would not have occurred. If not for political corruption, the US would not be endlessly engaged in wars of convenience. If not for political corruption, the US would not have the world's largest prison population. If not for political corruption, the US's War on Drugs would not be killing people around the world and undermining the viability of nations.

I submit, it's not possible for a reasonable person to review the evidence and not conclude that the US is the most corrupt nation on earth.

[Angry Citizen]

I submit, it's not possible for a reasonable person to review the evidence and not conclude that the US is the most corrupt nation on earth.

I submit that, if the above is demonstrative of your definition of reasonable, then I wish to remain unreasonable. Thanks for your time.

[Yarn]

So basically your entire argument revolves around the idea that the US is the most corrupt because it is the richest and therefore per equal rates of corruption the allocation of more money is determined. By the same standard, the US could be the best and worst at anything that it spends the most money on.

You Canadians suck at going to the bathroom. I mean, look how little you spend on toiletries. Ewwww!! Grosss!!

[barts]

So basically your entire argument revolves around the idea that the US is the most corrupt because it is the richest and therefore per equal rates of corruption the allocation of more money is determined. By the same standard, the US could be the best and worst at anything that it spends the most money on.

You Canadians suck at going to the bathroom. I mean, look how little you spend on toiletries. Ewwww!! Grosss!!

The United States always judges itself based on what it spends. Why would its corruption be any different? The US has the greatest military in all history. Why? Because it spends more money, not because its soldiers are braver or its generals more skilled.

Just wonderin' but how would you measure or evaluate corruption? It's clear that, in your view, my assessment is incorrect. To hold that view, you must have an alternative notion. What is it?

[Yarn]

The United States always judges itself based on what it spends. Why would its corruption be any different? The US has the greatest military in all history. Why? Because it spends more money, not because its soldiers are braver or its generals more skilled.

Just wonderin' but how would you measure or evaluate corruption? It's clear that, in your view, my assessment is incorrect. To hold that view, you must have an alternative notion. What is it?

Corruption is an act, not a product, therefore it doesn't have a monetary value. It is a rate. A small poor country may be more corrupt than a big rich country. A policeman who takes bribes in exchange for not investigating or accepts them to make a false arrest is every bit as corrupt as the equivalent in a powerful man.

[truthreality]

Brazil is one of the most corrupt and crime-ridden states in existence. You would seriously have us emulate them?

Brazil has the world's sixth largest economy in terms of nominal GDP, the seventh largest in terms of purchasing power and one of the fastest growing economies in the world with only half the population of the United States.

Brazil - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The United States ranks #1 in total crimes. Brazil is not even ithe top 82.

Total crimes statistics - countries compared - NationMaster Crime

There are countries far more corrupt then Brazil including Greece which was once the most powerful country in the world.