The final goal of Gods creation?

[Affluence]

Here's something I've been thinking about lately. It is assumed God is both omniscient and omnipotent. He knows past, present and future and can change anything about he to his will. Now, in its essence this means that God would know everything including the ending of its own existence and everything leading to that point and it would be comprehensible to him.

Now, if this is true, why are humans required to go through, what I'm told is, a test to see if they are worthy of heaven? God should be able to know exactly when you'd come into existence, what choices you would make, what kind of person you would become and he could grand you entrance based on that knowledge. I figured Earth might be a learning experience for individuals but then again, there wouldn't be anything on earth that you couldn't learn in heaven. Basically, your whole stay on earth is completely redundant.

My second thought is concerning our final goal as God's creation. Regardless of whether or not our stay on the Earth is redundant, after we get into either heaven or hell, what is the big idea behind it? Theist argue that life is merely a test to gain infinite life, but what is the purpose of that infinite life? If God is an almighty creator then we are nothing but his toys, brought into existence merely as his slaves with no particular purpose but to entertain him.

Ephemeral. I think you just asked the contents of the Encyclopedia Britannica...

So to answer your question, does the child outline the goals of the father?

Lets play for a moment that the child is as intelligent or more intelligent than the father.

Lets imagine for a moment that we were God.

I for one would choose to live as a child. To enjoy the life's experiences unfold before my curious eyes. Even though I can peek to the end of the book to find out what happens I would not. I would keep my consciousness in the present. Otherwise It would spoil the ending. Do you remember when you were about to see a movie then were told information that spoiled the movie for you? I have.

Could we plant a garden in where we can grow beautiful trees and plants and water them. Watch them both thrive in the light and wither in the dry cold?

Could we make animals to eat the grass and other bigger animals to eat the smaller animals like a cycle?

Could we make another creature that is more intelligent than the other animals to be able to appreciate the other creations you have made?

Could we make a place for the new creature to live? Could we take delight in our new creation? Would we make things unknowable to him to keep him humble?


"Come with me and we shall walk as equals among the stars " - Affluence

Could we entertain ourselves? I propose we could.

[BlackSheep]

Ephemeral. I think you just asked the contents of the Encyclopedia Britannica...

So to answer your question, does the child outline the goals of the father?

Lets play for a moment that the child is as intelligent or more intelligent than the father.

Lets imagine for a moment that we were God.

I for one would choose to live as a child. To enjoy the life's experiences unfold before my curious eyes. Even though I can peek to the end of the book to find out what happens I would not. I would keep my consciousness in the present. Otherwise It would spoil the ending. Do you remember when you were about to see a movie then were told information that spoiled the movie for you? I have.

Could we plant a garden in where we can grow beautiful trees and plants and water them. Watch them both thrive in the light and wither in the dry cold?

Could we make animals to eat the grass and other bigger animals to eat the smaller animals like a cycle?

Could we make another creature that is more intelligent than the other animals to be able to appreciate the other creations you have made?

Could we make a place for the new creature to live? Could we take delight in our new creation? Would we make things unknowable to him to keep him humble?


"Come with me and we shall walk as equals among the stars " - Affluence

Could we entertain ourselves? I propose we could.

The problem from this point of view is that it does not mesh with the idea of Yahweh as loving all of his children and the punishing of all humans for the sins of some etc. It does also not mesh with the idea of a super intelligent deity. For example I can enjoy a game of tic tac toe until I understand it so thoroughly that I can't lose and at that point I can predict it too much. It also ceases to be entertaining to my curious eyes. I think that s where the problem lay. I can imagine a deity very easily that would want to be as you described, but it would not mesh with the god of Abraham.

[DragonFly]

The problem with a universal-negative-type idea is that it is an idea of the imagination, as is anything added on to it, none of which can be used as input to what is trying to be shown, plus the showing is not ever possible in the first place. This bids one to move on to scientifically study just what it is in the cognitive nature of some to persist in strong belief and how that belief can even cause one to state opinion as fact and truth rather endlessly.

[Affluence]

The problem from this point of view is that it does not mesh with the idea of Yahweh as loving all of his children and the punishing of all humans for the sins of some etc. It does also not mesh with the idea of a super intelligent deity. For example I can enjoy a game of tic tac toe until I understand it so thoroughly that I can't lose and at that point I can predict it too much. It also ceases to be entertaining to my curious eyes. I think that s where the problem lay. I can imagine a deity very easily that would want to be as you described, but it would not mesh with the god of Abraham.

OKay BlackSheep. We are now at least speaking the same language. I did not realize you were an expert as to how my idea of God meshes with the God of Abraham. It does not mesh well you say. I propose it does. Lets keep in mind if we can agree that when we come to understand God we should not limit ourselves to any single religion. (though an Abrahamic religion would do well for me since I know them well. Jewish/ Muslim and Christian/ Catholic.)

I feel that you are becoming trapped in the religious dogmas that don't make sense to you. Something people don't agree with that happens in religion causes them to reject all religion and God too. I do see this happen and wonder if it is happening to you.

The way I can explain it is that religion has a lot to do with culture and the times in which the religion was based. If the culture and time changes the religion will change too. The problem may come when someone of the present time reads the writings of a religion of a previous culture/time and say " Hey ! I don't agree!" " That's wrong!" or " that's bad!" or " I will never do that!"

As for some examples; The God of the old testament was a vengeful and angry God. The new testament tells of a God of love and forgiveness. In the NT Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. In the OT God gives people the power to kill their enemies. If you notice, we no longer sacrifice goats or do we expect God to ask for our first born. Catholics are no longer looking for witches to burn but instead allow witches or Satanists to practice their faith. So as you can see the religion changes right before our eyes.

Now lets move to the present time. Slavery is outlawed. The religious leaders are moving from talking about fire and brimstone to focus on God forgiving our sins and our after life with him. Catholics develop this idea of purgatory so you don't have to even go to Hell. Now a newer the belief is that if you accept Jesus Christ on your death bed and are genuine about asking for forgiveness, your sins are forgiven and you will go to heaven. This is a true scenario in religious circles. The preachers are focusing on the positives of religion and our uplifting in spirituality and wisdom. Much less talking about sin and damnation. Did you notice? Does this mesh with your God of Abraham now cuz these are current beliefs by religious peoples. Also gay people are being accepted now- that one was a given it was just a mater of time.

So lets look at religion from the wider view. Its not God that is changing over the millennia but its the understanding of God that is changing due to changing times and cultures of the people. So when people protest religion due to the burning of witches, stoning women who are not virgins on their wedding night on their fathers doorsteps, the slaughtering of animals, or pointing to any verse in exodus, its just not accurate. These things where the highest axiom that these people had to work with at that time. These beliefs served a people of a much older time; sometimes of an ancient time. They don't apply now. The people are simply pointing blame to older cultures where in people lived very differently. So we don't have to do that. Its like if we blamed the founding fathers for keeping slaves and then proceeded burned the constitution.

I propose we can find the good in both the constitution and the Bible if we look. Peace.

[Affluence]

The problem with a universal-negative-type idea is that it is an idea of the imagination, as is anything added on to it, none of which can be used as input to what is trying to be shown, plus the showing is not ever possible in the first place. This bids one to move on to scientifically study just what it is in the cognitive nature of some to persist in strong belief and how that belief can even cause one to state opinion as fact and truth rather endlessly.

Can you please say this another way for a layman? Perhaps use some examples so I can better grasp what you are specifically talking about so I can better form an answer to your post? Thanks.

[DragonFly]

Can you please say this another way for a layman? Perhaps use some examples so I can better grasp what you are specifically talking about so I can better form an answer to your post? Thanks.

Believers often state the existence of 'God' as being truth and fact, such as in preaching and in churches, which is not ethical, for 'God' is just a belief—'faith' ever being spelled out in its definition as 'an unknown invisible', which adds nothing to it being known, although it tries to by 'faith' proposing the 'unknown invisible' as actual and existing. So, there is really no 'by faith' knowledge, but just wishes and desires for 'God' to exist, for perhaps the idea grants comfort.

Now, too, who is going to join a religion or a church if they say that 'God' might not exist?

Science can investigate why strong belief/emotion can overcome/bypass the rational/logical brain, and already it is known that emotion has a direct path into consciousness. (And worse when someone is having an outburst and can't be dealt with.)

Many decisions in life are based on emotion, such as getting a house that has a lot of openness, with cathedral ceilings, at the logical expense of a great loss of square footage, but, of course, not all based on emotion, for one may note that a bedroom could be added in the basement.

Emotional/belief decisions on what can't be shown to exist would seem to be a different story, but all are free to do as they do; however, in debate forums people freely ask and comment about things.

[BlackSheep]

OKay BlackSheep. We are now at least speaking the same language. I did not realize you were an expert as to how my idea of God meshes with the God of Abraham.

I never said anything about you idea of any deity nor being an expert. I was commenting on the example you gave and some of the basic ideas of Yahweh.

It does not mesh well you say. I propose it does. Lets keep in mind if we can agree that when we come to understand God we should not limit ourselves to any single religion. (though an Abrahamic religion would do well for me since I know them well. Jewish/ Muslim and Christian/ Catholic.)

Catholics are Christian.

I feel that you are becoming trapped in the religious dogmas that don't make sense to you. Something people don't agree with that happens in religion causes them to reject all religion and God too. I do see this happen and wonder if it is happening to you.

I have examined many religions and generally at the base document teachings as well as various dogmas. I do not reject gods I simply do not accept that there is any significant support for them.

The way I can explain it is that religion has a lot to do with culture and the times in which the religion was based. If the culture and time changes the religion will change too. The problem may come when someone of the present time reads the writings of a religion of a previous culture/time and say " Hey ! I don't agree!" " That's wrong!" or " that's bad!" or " I will never do that!"

I understand that quite well and understanding how people have thought in various times and cultures is something I strive to do, not simply as relating to region, but just in general. I also realize that I will never succeed.

As for some examples; The God of the old testament was a vengeful and angry God. The new testament tells of a God of love and forgiveness. In the NT Jesus teaches us to love our enemies. In the OT God gives people the power to kill their enemies. If you notice, we no longer sacrifice goats or do we expect God to ask for our first born. Catholics are no longer looking for witches to burn but instead allow witches or Satanists to practice their faith. So as you can see the religion changes right before our eyes.

I am quite familiar with all of this.

Now lets move to the present time. Slavery is outlawed. The religious leaders are moving from talking about fire and brimstone to focus on God forgiving our sins and our after life with him. Catholics develop this idea of purgatory so you don't have to even go to Hell. Now a newer the belief is that if you accept Jesus Christ on your death bed and are genuine about asking for forgiveness, your sins are forgiven and you will go to heaven. This is a true scenario in religious circles. The preachers are focusing on the positives of religion and our uplifting in spirituality and wisdom. Much less talking about sin and damnation. Did you notice? Does this mesh with your God of Abraham now cuz these are current beliefs by religious peoples. Also gay people are being accepted now- that one was a given it was just a mater of time.

There is no 'my God of Abraham'. There is the god of Abraham and if I was religious we could talk of my god.

Again I am quite familiar with of all of this. It seems to me you you are quite off topic. The example you gave does not mesh with the facts relayed in the Bible, suggesting that the Bible is quite wrong or your example s not apt.

So lets look at religion from the wider view. Its not God that is changing over the millennia but its the understanding of God that is changing due to changing times and cultures of the people. So when people protest religion due to the burning of witches, stoning women who are not virgins on their wedding night on their fathers doorsteps, the slaughtering of animals, or pointing to any verse in exodus, its just not accurate. These things where the highest axiom that these people had to work with at that time. These beliefs served a people of a much older time; sometimes of an ancient time. They don't apply now. The people are simply pointing blame to older cultures where in people lived very differently. So we don't have to do that. Its like if we blamed the founding fathers for keeping slaves and then proceeded burned the constitution.

I suggest that if they were wrong in their ancient times then modern theists are equally as wrong.

I propose we can find the good in both the constitution and the Bible if we look. Peace.

The constitution is an ideal and a very different thing, it does not suggest a knowledge of the universe. It is merely a set of rules to keep a government in check. The Bible is factual to a degree or not. If it is not 100% factual then how do we decide what is factual and what is not.

But all this is not the point. The point of this thread is to surmise what the purpose of the creating deity. You proposed a way of thinking of him and I put forth it does not mesh with the generally accepted ideas of the most widely accepted god. Your suggestion that the earlier understanding of this god was greatly effected by culture suggests that the same is true now and that we know nothing in either case.

If we ignore the Bible completely and simply examine your example I would put forth we have a deity that is basically amoral and is watching a 'simulation' unfold for entertainment. I agree if we assume a single creative deity that this model makes more sense than most.

[NoJingoLingo]

You make way too many ASSUMPTIONS about God. Instead of listening to what others say of God, get to know the REAL God...He's much different than what you have been taught.

So we shouldn't listen to what others say about your god but rather, we should get to know the REAL god? Where are we going to get this information then, the bible? Been there, done that and I find your god to be a vengeful tyrant.

The truth is that God needs workers that He can depend on, just like any BOSS MAN. It's a very big universe and most of it is UNDEVELOPED. God wants good workers, faithful servants, not rebellious slaves.

He pays well.

Why does your god need humans for anything, after all, isn't he all powerful?

[Affluence]

So we shouldn't listen to what others say about your god but rather, we should get to know the REAL god? Where are we going to get this information then, the bible? Been there, done that and I find your god to be a vengeful tyrant.

Why does your god need humans for anything, after all, isn't he all powerful?

Nojingo lingo:

I find it difficult to fathom the desires of an all powerful creator. However, as a father, I love having my daughters watching them grow and teaching them. I propose that progeny is quite desirable.

Further, when I write a computer program, I kind of know what it is going to do, but only when i run it do I get excited and happy to see it work. This is the same for me when I see a good movie again for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times etc. It makes me happy. Call me crazy... Peace

[Layman]

"all knowing all seeing god" its false teaching i believe.
Look at Genesis 3:22 :
"and the lord god said "The man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever"........this shows a "God(s)" not knowing that man would eat from the tree and learn good and evil......whichis the original sin...not sex or being born of sex.

oe another example
Look at Genesis 6:6
"The lord was grieved that he made man on the earth, and his heart was filled with pain"

how could he greive then when he already knew this would happen by that way of teaching.

i take these examples of of the bible as a source..(not as truth of faith..thats for each and every person to except or not except by my own reasoning of faith) because we talk of "god". in this thread.

[Layman]

sorry for the spelling in my above statement.

[BlackSheep]

I find it difficult to fathom the desires of an all powerful creator. However, as a father, I love having my daughters watching them grow and teaching them. I propose that progeny is quite desirable.

But would you kill them for not obeying you so you could try again with new children?

Further, when I write a computer program, I kind of know what it is going to do, but only when i run it do I get excited and happy to see it work. This is the same for me when I see a good movie again for the 2nd, 3rd and 4th times etc. It makes me happy. Call me crazy... Peace

I would call you human.

I have no problem seeing a god as a curious creature who wants to see how things develop, I have an issue with a claim it is loving, perfect, all powerful and all knowing with what s happening in the world today let alone what what the bible clams happened.

I can see god as a kid with an ant farm. Does he loves the ants? Doubtful. Fond perhaps, but not if they annoy him and if he really just wants t see what will happen, then it is not what I call fatherly love.